Discussion topic: Does "God" Exist?
17 May 2009 08:17 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
leethetBecause this always gets unwieldy in comms so I think I should rightly rant/discuss here where it won't get in others' way.
This is a writing discussion/question, not a religious one, and it should go without saying that it's my position, not anyone else's.
"When I write, I am God playing Humans." This is true. For all that, in fanfic, we are using someone else's characters, in my stories, for the length of the tale, they're mine. I "created" them (that is, these fannish versions of them). I know what they ate for breakfast (which I didn't put in the story). I know their parentage (which I didn't put in the story). I know their fears (the ones they'll admit and the ones they won't).
And I know their sexual orientation, even if I don't explicitly state it in the story. When I write gen, it's gen. NS and IK are heterosexual men who love one another as brothers and would never, in that particular universe, ever want to have sex with each other. When I write slash, NS and IK are bisexual or homosexual men who have a physical attraction to one another in addition to their love.
The question/discussion part is here: Writers - do you know your characters and your writing (whether you've articulated it or written it down or plan to include it in the story or not)? Do you sometimes not know your character(s) insides, their motivations, their history, their sexuality, whatever, as you're writing or even when you're done with the story? This is not an accusation or an "if so you're wrong" question. I'm asking in genuine curiosity because I know everyone's process differs. I freely admit (like it's a secret) that I'm offended by readers telling me "yes you did!" after I state explicitly that I did not. I am God in my story universe; the reader is a viewer, looking in from the outside. I am as much a reader as a writer - I fully believe in, and defend, a reader's right to see a story in any way they like, and discuss it and argue it as their interpretation. I do not believe a reader's interpretation is fact (although I actually do also believe that a reader has the total right to believe their interpretation is fact). A reader can argue "This story reads like X" all they want. But if I say "It's Y," although they have the absolute right to say "Shit, still reads like X to me, man. To me, it'll always be X," they do not have the right to tell me, the creator, "You're wrong. You don't know what you wrote, but I do." This distinction, to me, matters (probably because it's happened to me and it's offensive). Because of this, I'm curious - have you had readers contradict you - not interpret a scene differently from the way you'd intended, not point out something you hadn't been consciously aware of, not be puzzled or missed your story point - actually contradict your statement of fact regarding your story by saying "No you didn't"?
Now, it seems that there are writers out there who aren't sure what they're putting in, and I'm interested in hearing examples of discussions they've had with readers regarding interpretation. Do their comments open a window to subconscious things you're doing in a story? Are you resistant to readers' interpretations, even when you yourself aren't certain about them? Or do you deliberately (as it were) write in such a way that all (or at least many) interpretations are equally possible and viable for the characters (that is, the characters remain a bit of a blank, or partly blank, slate)?
As ever, all sorts of comments, including disagreement or anon comments, are welcome here.
This is a writing discussion/question, not a religious one, and it should go without saying that it's my position, not anyone else's.
"When I write, I am God playing Humans." This is true. For all that, in fanfic, we are using someone else's characters, in my stories, for the length of the tale, they're mine. I "created" them (that is, these fannish versions of them). I know what they ate for breakfast (which I didn't put in the story). I know their parentage (which I didn't put in the story). I know their fears (the ones they'll admit and the ones they won't).
And I know their sexual orientation, even if I don't explicitly state it in the story. When I write gen, it's gen. NS and IK are heterosexual men who love one another as brothers and would never, in that particular universe, ever want to have sex with each other. When I write slash, NS and IK are bisexual or homosexual men who have a physical attraction to one another in addition to their love.
The question/discussion part is here: Writers - do you know your characters and your writing (whether you've articulated it or written it down or plan to include it in the story or not)? Do you sometimes not know your character(s) insides, their motivations, their history, their sexuality, whatever, as you're writing or even when you're done with the story? This is not an accusation or an "if so you're wrong" question. I'm asking in genuine curiosity because I know everyone's process differs. I freely admit (like it's a secret) that I'm offended by readers telling me "yes you did!" after I state explicitly that I did not. I am God in my story universe; the reader is a viewer, looking in from the outside. I am as much a reader as a writer - I fully believe in, and defend, a reader's right to see a story in any way they like, and discuss it and argue it as their interpretation. I do not believe a reader's interpretation is fact (although I actually do also believe that a reader has the total right to believe their interpretation is fact). A reader can argue "This story reads like X" all they want. But if I say "It's Y," although they have the absolute right to say "Shit, still reads like X to me, man. To me, it'll always be X," they do not have the right to tell me, the creator, "You're wrong. You don't know what you wrote, but I do." This distinction, to me, matters (probably because it's happened to me and it's offensive). Because of this, I'm curious - have you had readers contradict you - not interpret a scene differently from the way you'd intended, not point out something you hadn't been consciously aware of, not be puzzled or missed your story point - actually contradict your statement of fact regarding your story by saying "No you didn't"?
Now, it seems that there are writers out there who aren't sure what they're putting in, and I'm interested in hearing examples of discussions they've had with readers regarding interpretation. Do their comments open a window to subconscious things you're doing in a story? Are you resistant to readers' interpretations, even when you yourself aren't certain about them? Or do you deliberately (as it were) write in such a way that all (or at least many) interpretations are equally possible and viable for the characters (that is, the characters remain a bit of a blank, or partly blank, slate)?
As ever, all sorts of comments, including disagreement or anon comments, are welcome here.
no subject
Date: 18 May 2009 03:27 am (UTC)You mention YOU KNOW what the characters ate for breakfast even if unstated. The reader might have some ideas of their food preferences as well. But I don't think your question is about eggs vs. pancakes. It's about you as the author being right no matter what. I just don't agree. We bring our own layers and meaning into what we write (including the subconscious) and also do the same when we read. No one is God.
My own experience with my first foray into MFU fanfic involved a reader who thought my Napoleon was mean, in fact said (on a list yet) that I had written a character assassination of him. It was not my intent to be sure. Certainly I could argue my case but if that's what this reader took from my story--well-- her interpretation must have made sense for her. It really made no difference what I meant. The story stands alone like a bird pushed from its nest.
no subject
Date: 19 May 2009 01:32 am (UTC)It's actually not, not if you mean I think the reader's interpretation is invalid. People always misunderstand me when I say the reader's not allowed to tell me what I was thinking - that's not the same thing as "the reader's not allowed to interpret my story however he/she likes."
See, I'm a reader too. I don't at all think a reader's interpretation of the story is invalid because it differs from my intent. A reader contradicting me when I say "This is what I wrote and this is my backstory and this is how these characters exist in my head as I write" is invalid, and rude, and readers like that can kiss my a**. But that's a very different thing.
no subject
Date: 19 May 2009 01:54 am (UTC)Reader: I sense all kinds of sexual attraction subtext in this gen story.
Me: I didn't put any in. These men are entirely heterosexual in this universe.
Perfectly OK answer: Well, boy, I'm sure sensing it!
WRONG and offensive answer: Yes you did.
See what I mean? :-)
no subject
Date: 19 May 2009 03:27 am (UTC)Of course I do. You seem to be talking about a specific instance (or even more than one) and I, too, urge civility in discussion. A reader should not tell you what you were thinking when you wrote. I thought you meant in your initial post that the writer is the ultimate authority and I don't agree with that. But neither do I think a reader should badger you and insist on questioning your motivations. That's rude and dismissive.
no subject
Date: 20 May 2009 12:31 am (UTC)Yeah, I don't mean that. I'm not sure there's any "authority" in art (I hate calling my stuff or fanfic in general art, but you know what I mean) or in anything that is created then shared, you know (I'm one of those who also doesn't think the educated art critic has a "better" opinion than any random Joe, or more right to have an opinion)? That is, yes, I don't stop existing as a human being just because I'm an author - I can have a viewpoint too - but the thing about art is, as you describe in your original response, once it's out there it "belongs" to its audience (well, hell, it belongs to its audience even when it isn't "out there" - when the audience is just the author/creator!). But when art's out in the world, it's out in the world. I wouldn't have it any other way - in fact, I've gain a few online "enemies" (strong word, but sort of accurate) by basically saying that when your stuff's out there, it's out there for better or worse and you don't get to direct how people react to it, whether you like their reaction or not - and people who want to silence reactions they don't like should keep their friggin' art to themselves, because that's censorship, and I'm anti.
So I think we basically agree.