Excuse me...

[leethet]

...while I rant a bit.
I'm a copy editor for a living. I've had to say critical things about people's writing because it's my job. I've been doing it a long time, and I pull no punches. That said, I read a comment made in an MFU forum that, while by no means uncommon of late, seems to have been the last straw breaking the back of my silence. Humps to follow.
I sometimes don't like stories. Sometimes I think they suck. But you will never see me posting that view on a public list. "This story/writer sucks." Why? Because it is mean-spirited and -- worse and far more importantly -- useless. I've seen a little too much "So-and-so's stuff sucks. I want XYZ kinds of stories" floating around the MFU fandom and I'm irked. It's fine to say "It sucked" to yourself or your chums privately; that's venting, it's human, but in the long run it's just noise. It's OK to make noise in your own home. In a public forum, you're in a sense an invited guest. Try to bring something to the table. Don't just make noise. Make conversation. If your opinion is so harsh it cannot be offered up civilly and even constructively, perhaps it should be left at home -- unless being needlessly unpleasant in front of other people is a thrill for you. It's perfectly possible to say "I didn't care for this story because it was too action-oriented/relationship oriented/romantic/espionage-heavy/OOC in my view; I am looking for stories that are more romantic/action-oriented/hurt-comfort/fetish-oriented/whatever" -- specific criticism is useful to the writer and to the other readers on the list who might share your views, and negative comments do not have to be insulting. Mind you, a poster is not obligated to give lengthy critique (and some writers don't want it), but in that case, surely a courteous "I didn't care for it" reflects better on you than "Boy, that sucked."
A little thought, a little consideration, a little restraint. Courtesy does not have to stifle criticism. In fact it benefits it, because a clear and well-delivered criticism is invariably better received and made use of by a writer than such comments as "this sucked," "I don't like this scene," etc. -- those are reactions, not criticism.
And reactions are fine, but, really, if someone said to you "Your story sucked," but had nothing else to say about it, nothing else to offer ... wouldn't you prefer they'd kept it to themselves?

Comments

[lyrebird.livejournal.com]

And reactions are fine, but, really, if someone said to you "Your story sucked," but had nothing else to say about it, nothing else to offer ... wouldn't you prefer they'd kept it to themselves?

But at the same time, I'd argue that I am in no position to tell someone what they can and can't say about me or my work. People can and will say what they like. In an ideal world, everyone would be courteous and kind and helpful...but people ain't like that. Not all the time, anyway.

Fanfic commentary doesn't have to be useful, does it? We don't go around expecting fanfic to be specifically useful, as far as I'm aware. Why can't both coexist simply as forms of expression in their own right?

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

People can and will say what they like.

Very true. But as Lee observes, a little civility would be nice and actually contributes to the possibility of real discussion. When one simply says, "It sucked" the discussion pretty much stops there.

[dinahmt.livejournal.com]

But at the same time, I'd argue that I am in no position to tell someone what they can and can't say about me or my work. People can and will say what they like.

This is very sadly true, but in a civilised world there are manners and rules to prevent just such hurtful and pointless remarks. I just think that such spitefulness has no place on a listserve. Lists have been brought down over just such behaviour - why tolerate it?

[leethet.livejournal.com]

But at the same time, I'd argue that I am in no position to tell someone what they can and can't say about me or my work. People can and will say what they like.

It's not the opinion, it's the mode of expression, that I'm objecting to.

In an ideal world, everyone would be courteous and kind and helpful...but people ain't like that. Not all the time, anyway.

No, they aren't. But they could be, couldn't they? At least more often.

Fanfic commentary doesn't have to be useful, does it?

Nope; which I think I mentioned up there. :)

We don't go around expecting fanfic to be specifically useful, as far as I'm aware. Why can't both coexist simply as forms of expression in their own right?

They can and they do. I'm not asking for silence, I'm wishing for courtesy. In lieu of that, keeping the comments within one's private circle is as close to courtesy as one can hope for. However, a person who isn't interested in courtesy would perhaps by definition be neither civil in language nor discreet in distribution.

[dinahmt.livejournal.com]

Well said, Lee! It's bad enough having to sometimes say unpleasant things in one's professional life without bringing it to what is meant to be fun!

[cousinnat.livejournal.com]

You're preaching to the choir here. This post belongs on MFUfic where the offenders seem to be taking over sometimes.

Yes, saying 'this story sucks' is free speech, but it's provocative, and nothing good can come of it. It not only makes the writer defensive, but people start to take sides, and the whole thing snowballs.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

It's perfectly possible to say "I didn't care for this story because it was too action- oriented/relationship oriented/romantic/espionage-heavy/OOC in my view; I am looking for stories that are more romantic/action-oriented/hurt-comfort/fetish-oriented/whatever" -- specific criticism is useful to the writer and to the other readers on the list who might share your views, and negative comments do not have to be insulting.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that comments like that are a bag of kack. Because that's not criticism, that's choosing your favourite flavour - it's like saying 'I dislike that ice cream because it's strawberry, whereas if it was chocolate I would think it was wonderful'. And as any conoisseur of ice cream knows, there's good chocolate ice cream and crappy chocolate ice cream.

*wonders if she's making any sense whatsoever*

Hmmm

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I think I understand you, Grac, and you're right. "I want more H/C" is an opinion rather than a literary criticism (in the sense of "your characterization here puzzles me" for instance) -- but on the lists, often taste (or flavor, to use your term *g*) is what's being discussed, and it's where the unpleasantness comes in. It's a reasonable distinction but one that generally blurs on the lists when discussing a fic. It's an easy line to blur unless someone comes in and dissects the reader's reactions to learn whether she hated the story because it was H/C (e.g.) or because it was poorly done H/C.
But I would say my point covers both "taste" reviews and structural reviews. There's nothing wrong with saying, for instance, "I prefer even bad chocolate to good strawberry," though it's a "taste" and not a literary criticism. But you don't have to say "These strawberries suck!" :)

Re: Hmmm

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I guess it also depends on what that 'taste' or 'flavour' preference is based on. Is it based on that person's previous experiences (I keep reading this all sex and no plot and it's just so repetitive, therefore I think *any* plot-based story will be better than this, or vice versa...) or just their personal opinions?

If it's based on a particular view of the characters, then that's another matter, imo. I wouldn't express it as 'that story sucks' but if it's a case of "I think that's a bad story because NS would never be on the bottom" or something similar, that's their purview. Of course, they'd be wrong, but it's *their* wrongness! ;)

[ardent-muses.livejournal.com]

First off, I'm so new that I'm wet behind the ears. Second, I heard a few things about the MFU list culture that made me not want to join any, and I haven't. I certainly didn't see this incident happen first hand.

However, I've seen countless others like it, and I had to say that I *love* the way you articulated your position. I agree with you 100 percent.

Personally, I don't see the point of saying anything negative about a story to the writer's face in public. The author might or might not be writing to my taste, but I'm not entitled to have people write to my taste. If you have to say it, say it in email and/or with some courtesy.

That said, I can understand lyrebird's point, and I wouldn't want to be on a list where the rules prohibited saying certain things. I just don't think that, in a civilized society, people should *have* to be forbidden from being mean to each other. It should be obvious, and if it's not, then the community norms should be enforced by peer pressure. It sounds like that's exactly what happened.

/talking about something I didn't witness first hand.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't see the point of saying anything negative about a story to the writer's face in public.

There are places and times when it's perfectly appropriate, even expected. We do have crit lists, and many writers, myself included, invite and genuinely want commentary, including the "er, this scene...POV all over the place!" kind. But even I don't see the value of getting an email from someone saying "Your story sucks." A negative opinion can have positive effects, if expressed usefully. "Your story sucks" is simply unpleasant (and unpleasantness is not its fatal flaw -- uselessness is).
And even on the non-critiquing lists there is NOTHING wrong with offering a dissenting or negative opinion about a story or a writer -- but it should be done with courtesy.
There's also nothing at all wrong, of course, with NOT offering an opinion -- if you don't want to or don't have one or any reason at all.
I don't want to stifle debate at all; I only ask that people remember there are other humans at the other ends of the opinions. And, really, most people in MFU are courteous. It's only a very few who are not.