30 Day Fandom Meme Day 28

[leethet]

Day 28 – Have you ever collaborated with anyone else, whether writing together, or having an artist work on a piece about your fic?
No. I don’t see how it’s possible! In fact, once I polled some people in HP about how they collaborated because I simply can’t imagine it working (even though it clearly does – many collaborations are just fantastic). I can’t imagine writing a story with someone else and either enjoying the process or having it come out well, even though I’ve seen that it can happen. Fascinates me.

In HP a couple of artists have done art for my stories (Lizardspots did a sort of comic strip, trekkiegrrl and yael created single scenes), not in collaboration but just because they felt like it. It's very cool to see how other people interpret scenes, and how close they sometimes come to what I was seeing in my head. I don't know if that's coincidence or simply that I described it effectively - you really can't know - but it's very cool to see how others visualize my words.

Comments

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

I have had four great collaborative experiences.


The first is the long running and yet to be finished Escape from NY/MFU crossover AU. [It's a dystopia; Thrush has taken over the world.] gulffire and I divvied up the characters and only played out own. We shared writing the linking narrative.

That process worked out well, so I repeated it with three other people, NL Hayes, nsandik and farad. Each collaboration and the stories that resulted were very different but they were all great experiences. I think the stories turned out well, too.

I was also involved in two multi-writer collaborations that imploded for various reasons and did not work out.

In art+writing, Suzi Lovett illustrated my early St. Crispin zines and I could not have been more pleased. For some of the OC characters, seeing her illos was the first time I truly saw them and it was great!

[leethet.livejournal.com]

gulffire and I divvied up the characters and only played out own. We shared writing the linking narrative.

Here's the key puzzle to me - exactly how did you share the linking narrative? How'd you keep pacing and plot seamless?

And in your other collaborations, exactly how did it work? I know this could be a REALLY long answer and I won't be offended if you don't want to go into it, but I'm genuinely fascinated by how two writers actually do the day to day work of stitching two different styles together - I simply cannot picture it being satisfying [which is probably just me] because I can't see how I write something, someone else writes the next bit, and they're totally happy with my bit and I'm totally happy with theirs, etc. And it's not about quality - I certainly don't suppose there aren't plenty of better writers out there - I can't even visualize working with a writer who's better than me! There's a certain investment in "my" story being mine (that's a great pleasure of fanfic for me); I can't help thinking I'd resent someone else changing it or telling me I had to change it or even simply taking it in a direction (re tone or characterization) that's away from how I feel the story should go. I can't help thinking it would leave me unhappy (and again, that would have zero to do with quality and everything to do with my personal interpretation of the story). I hope I don't suck totally at compromise (I might ...), but in a weird way I think a fanfic story is either mine or it's not mine - I don't seem to be able to visualize a middle ground.

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

I can see why you would think collaboration might not work because at first, I didn't either. Nan and I tried a traditional collaboration first. She wrote a piece, I'd add or rewrite, then I did a piece, she's add to it or rewrite. That didn't work: we kept pissing each other off in the reviewing and rewriting.

Then we stumbled upon interactive writing. Basically, we divvied up the characters. I wrote all the MFU characters, she wrote the Escape characters and we divvied up the OCs. I would write the narrative piece that contained my character speaking or doing, then stop. Then she would write. After a while, it became instinctual when to stop, although sometimes, it was just a line of dialogue. We did this over a dedicated computer program in the late 1980s-early 90s, then over email. Wrote four and a half volumes and thousands upon thousands of words this way.

I then tried it with Nancy Hayes. She worked faster than Nan, so we did it over AOL/IM. Same divving up, but usually as I was writing my piece, Nancy would be revising hers and material flowed in two directions very quickly. We finished an entire complicated novel, Small Sacrifices, in six weeks. Our test was Two Men Sittin' on a Boat which is on File 40. Small Sacrifices won a FanQ.

Linda White wrote equally fast and I wrote the vampire story with her pretty much the same way and in similar record time.

Fara and I like to write Solo and Angelique this way and we finished an x-rated piece similar over AOL/IM.

In each case, we esablished an overall arc for the story BUT we kept pieces and secrets from each other as we moved along. No one could tell the other person what to write or how a character should act. It's very exciting that way --like living inside a character ---and it's totally absorbing and addictive. Nan and I only went down a dead end once, and then we agreed to throw a bunch of pages out, back up and start again, re-imagining a particular turning point.

I have been lucky in finding four people with whom I'm on the same wavelength and I think they would agree it was a satisfying experience with a good outcome each time.

I can provide links to some of the pieces and we can talk further about who wrote what and how if you're interested in pursuing the question.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I have been lucky in finding four people with whom I'm on the same wavelength

I suspect this is key (not the only one, of course - but maybe a sine qua non?) - generally the same level of writing skill and the same outlook regarding story arc and level of detail - in a very broad sense, similar writing styles. I would think that without that, it'd be impossible, at least, to keep the seams from showing.

I really appreciate your articulating this!

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

I think similar perspective is important but not writing styles. I think only Linda has a style similar to mine. Nancy is far more cerebral; Nan and Fara, more emotional. But I guess we were all in the ballpark at least. And I don't think there could be too much difference in proficiency.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Yes, I didn't really express that clearly, because I don't really mean like styles so much as a broadly similar approach - that is, someone who writes crack humor and a dry serious writer would have a hard time, I think, producing a seamless collaboration, but if each of you can bend toward a common style that's not too far from your strengths, I think that could work (I mean, in my head - obviously I've never done it!). Or at least it would help.

For reference....

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

Find an excerpt from “Small Sacrifices” still only available in print here.

An excerpt from Escape/MFU written with Nan is here and here.

"The Children of the Night Afair," written with Linda, is here.

And "Risky Business" written with Fara is here.

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

There's a certain investment in "my" story being mine (that's a great pleasure of fanfic for me); I can't help thinking I'd resent someone else changing it or telling me I had to change it or even simply taking it in a direction

Oh, this makes perfect sense, and you do have to sacrifice ego a bit. With Nan and I, we have different skill sets. I'm better at propelling the story arc; she's better at managing emotional nuance so we sort of guided each other. The narrative that emerged, we both agree, was a third voice, part her, part me.

With Nancy, our characters were set against each other so it was more competitive than collaborative, with the characters sort of outmaneuvering each other. It was exhausting but totally absorbing and the result was very sharp.

My collaborations with Linda and Fara were more like romances [the material was softer, lighter] and the give and take was a bit different.

Each collaboration was a different sort of relationship and personally, I treasure them all.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Oh, so many questions I have ....

With Nancy, our characters were set against each other so it was more competitive than collaborative, with the characters sort of outmaneuvering each other. It was exhausting but totally absorbing and the result was very sharp.

But did you agree in advance who was going to "win" so to speak (plot/character wise, not personally!)? Did you have a clear outline that you stuck to?

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

No, and no one 'won' either. As you can see by the intro, this was Nancy's idea. She proposed it to me and I saw a whole range of possibilities of where the story could go ---probably more than she did. [We were very much like Solo and Illya in that way.] She saw it as a methodical way to explore a scientific subject. I figured all hell would break loose. I was right.

What happened early on was that I had Solo react in a way I thought consistent with Nowhere Aff but not quite what Illya was expecting. Then, when Solo woke up without knowing who he was, I just followed that and acted according. Suddenly, there were options I didn't see either but I just followed the logic of it. So did she. Suddenly, she and Illya realized they were in trouble and she even brought in the first OC characters to add to the chaos.

We really didn't have a plan for this for some time and just followed the logic. Somewhere along the line, we agreed Solo should probably escape, so in that way, she had to hold Illya back a bit. But not much, since Illya would not have killed Solo anyway. Poor Illya did get pummeled however, and both she and he had to allow it to happen. We never explicitly agreed, but it was clear this would not be a death story and we would resolve it by the end. It was my idea to bring in April and then Angelique which complicated matters even further. On the other hand, she did the doctor [who ended up the antagonist] and the lab guys.

The hardest part of the story for me was playing Waverly to her Kuryakin. We didn't realize AW would be so important and it worked better if I played AW. But then I was pitted against her Illya and had to discuss philosophy and occasionally out-argue him. That was really hard and I did the best I could. The title arose from one of those exchanges.

I believe that if you're writing logically, stories fall into almost pre-determined structure see [lit theory and Joseph Campbell] . We followed the logic of the situation even as it became more and more complicated.

As with Nan, we had a lot of side huddles --- time outs in which we talked about what was happening as if we were just witnesses. Writing this way gives you a feeling of being on a team ---you and your characters -- of both acting but also simply watching the characters in action. So, yes, we did take occasional time outs to talk about where things were going, but we always share what we individually would do about them. Sometimes, it's better to allow the characters to react.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

This is most interesting - looking at the excerpt and knowing each of you took a character makes the back and forth very interesting to read (I find myself putting myself in one or another writer's place and going "Shit, now what?"). I can see how that would be challenging! I can't imagine being able to produce a story arc without some kind of outline, but I see that you guys did "outline" by consulting as you went about how the story should go (and, presumably, should not go), so you began to channel your efforts as you went along, it seems (correct me if I'm misreading it). I don't know how you could have finished without doing that, but I also suspect this has something to do with both of you being pros at the writing craft. It was unlikely either of you would suddenly do something ridiculous.

Did you find you had to throw out chunks that went in a wrong direction, or did your constant communication keep you both from veering too far?

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

Shit, now what Yeah, that's the risk part, but also makes this process addictive. There's the part where *you* as a writer have to come up with something and then there's when you're hit with something from the other side.

As I said in another comment, I think stories have an in-born structure and that begins to emerge. And yes, you must be able to trust that your writing partner won't do someting stupid. I was in another multi-player collaboration where half the writers were "serious" while there were two people throwing monkey wrenches into the plot just for the 'fun' of it. There's no way to finish a story like that and I bailed. The project fell apart.

The only time I have ever thrown a huge chunk out was with Nan. We couldn't decide whether or not a character should overhear an argument. We decided he didn't and then kept writing and realized a couple of dozen pages later we'd made a wrong turn. So, we reconsidered, found the turning point and backed up. It was like the proverbial road not taken and the second way worked much better. If only real life could work that way :)

To answer your last point, communication is vital. It doesn't require fairly regular huddles between writers if plotting is key. I think I had fewer huddles with Fara and Linda because those stories were less plot-driven and I could speak to them *through* the characters. This was particularly true with Napoleon and Angelique.

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

bTW: I'm speaking about Small Sacrifices. On the boat thing, we had absolutely no plan or agenda and pretty much let the characters say and do what they wanted. It's pretty much a PWP, but with talk and not sex.

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

I can't help thinking I'd resent someone else changing it or telling me I had to change it

Yes, which is why we divvy up the characters. I loved writing my Solo with Nancy's Illya. She didn't tell me how to write mine and I didn't tell her how to write hers. The interacton between them was fascinating, however, almost like we weren't writing but just watching them interact and taking notes.

When I write by myself, I do control everything. But if you're willing to sacrifice some of that control, you gt the adrenalin rush of risk. The pay-off is like living with the characters in a real world.

[elmey.livejournal.com]

I worked for a long time in television where the process of making programs is very collaborative and often very frustrating. I like not having to collaborate when I'm writing :) I'm not even that fond of talking about the details of what I'm writing. Once it's written I'm happy to jabber on, probably ad nauseum, but not before. Obviously, as you say, some people collaborate very successfully, but I wonder how hard it is to have both people equally pleased with the process/results.

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

I've worked in production, too, and also in journalism. I don't mind collaborating in production when each person is an expert in their sphere but I would have had a hard time in journalism.
I collaborated on a script once with a fellow journalist and it turned out well but the work load was unequal. I would never do it again.

Writing interactively in fanfic works for me, however, as long as I have the right partner. I wouldn't do it with just anyone and I guess I'd have to be convinced that the other writer could write the other character at least as well or possibly better than I think I could. This was true in all four instances. I greatly respected Nan's Plissken, Nancy's Illya, Linda's vampire and Fara's Angelique.

I might add that my ego and sensibility would never allow me to write with anyone if I didn't have full control over Solo's character. I know that going in :)

[elmey.livejournal.com]

It's an interesting way to work, I saw the description you gave above. I have a feeling I wouldn't be very good at it, but I think that's partly because I tend to work slowly and focus so much (too much probably) on emotional nuances.

Did you feel at all that you had to adjust your writing style? Or did the styles merge pretty easily?

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I agree with you that pace would definitely be an issue - either because you're writing to a deadline (as pros do) or because one of you would get too far ahead and get impatient or the storyline would fall apart because one person couldn't do more 'til the slower partner caught up. It seems that would wreak havoc on any enjoyment! But I would guess that generally the successful collaborations involve people whose writing speed (and ability to find time to write!) is broadly the same.

The related "pacing" question also boggles my mind - matching styles seems to me to be a very important issue so the story doesn't, you know, read like Dickens and Hemingway sat down to take turns.

[elmey.livejournal.com]

matching styles seems to me to be a very important issue

People do have distinct styles. I tend to notice it fairly quickly (an old lit major). But then perhaps people with radically different writing styles would be unlikely to have an urge to work together like this :)

I wonder how betas deal with that.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I think it depends. In writing fiction, I have never felt an urge to collaborate. But in other areas of writing (work-wise) I can certainly see where one person brings, for instance the technical knowhow and the other brings the grammatical skills (that's how I've made a living for a long time!). So in that sense I can collaborate. But creative fiction is so different from nonfiction ... tenor, style, pacing ... I'm amazed that people can make it work, but they obviously can, and enjoy it. I do agree that as Dr C says above you must sacrifice a bit of ego to even attempt it - to be willing to give up some aspects of control, and even some of your content, to the greater good of getting a smooth story written. I just like my own methods too much, I guess!

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

Here's a piece I wrote interactively with Nancy:

http://file40.net/file40g/two_spies.html

I started it, writing the first paragraph. She wrote the second. I wrote the next four. Nancy wrote the one after that where Illya reflects. Then the interchange gets shorter and shorter as the guys begin to engage.

We knew our characters but we didn't know what or how they would interact with one another, what they would say or do, particuarly as they got drunker. But the exchange turned out pretty interesting and philosophical and we were so pleased, we followed up with a full blown novel.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I need to go do yard work so I won't come back to this right away, but I definitely want to take at least a chunk of the story and dissect it, so to speak, to hear you talk about what felt right or wrong, how you knitted it together (especially - I can understand I write a bit of dialogue, someone answers in character, etc. - but what about the linking bits and plotty bits?), etc. - I'll be back!

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

Sure. No prob. If my reply gets too long, I'll cross-post to my own LJ.