Thought for the Day

[leethet]

Though I hope I'll have at least one more, as it's early yet.

A lot of people think they want constructive criticism. Until they get it. Then they realize it's not a synonym for unthinking praise.

Comments

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

I think the difference is when it isn't actually constructive, merely a mean spirited attempt to appear the better writer. It isn't common on LJ, but other venues have attracted some people whose opinions I discount based on their delivery.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Well, the problem here is perception, isn't it? I've certainly witnessed people being snotty toward others, but I've also witnessed a lot of fanfic writers (in multiple fandoms, and not just young kids!) getting pissy and offended because someone gave them very solid and accurate criticism (in my view, at least, and I do have some experience as an editor). They post on their LJ with "Well, it doesn't really bother me because I'm above this sort of thing, but what SHITTY MEAN comments and they're so totally wrong it makes me mad. Not that it bothers me." Then a bunch of pals respond with "Yeah, that was mean!" "They're just jealous!" And I hope that makes folks like that feel better, but in the end I wonder if they'll ever improve their writing when anything other than praise gets their back up.

Naturally my perspective is skewed; I'm an editor. It's endemic to my calling to understand that no story is perfect. :-) I also flatter myself I know good criticism when I see it. No one enjoys hearing faults cataloged - the writers who'll improve are the ones who can get past that "ouch!" and go "OK, s/he has a point." Experience and broad reading habits also, I think, help a fledgling writer to understand the concepts that make writing good - this opens the door to good criticism.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Good criticism is just that: good. I'll admit to having adverse reactions to a couple of people whose comments were self-congratulatory for having such a better knowledge of the subject (erroneously, I might add). I have also fielded complaints based on some personal issue that had no real relationship to the story, but was merely an opportunity to demand adherence to an aesthetic that is not my own, nor relevant in any way.
On the other hand, I have changed my stories more than once to accommodate a truly constructive criticism regarding a scene or my style of writing. I hope I've learned something from that, and try to keep those types of comments in mind even now.
I don't consider myself a veteran of this fandom thing, not after only a mere four years. People will read or not read what I write, just as I choose what I do based on my preferences. What I will never do is rake someone over the coals, in public, for an error or presumed lapse in judgement or style.
Everyone has an opinion, but it may not necessarily be accompanied by good manners.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Everyone has an opinion, but it may not necessarily be accompanied by good manners.

I agree entirely. Unfortunately "good manners" are also in the eye of the beholder. :-) And of course this is not really specific to fandom. How we offer and handle criticism is an aspect of life as a whole (I don't mean to sound as if I'm informing you of this - of course you know it. I'm just sayin').

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Say away ;) I just find it entirely unnecessary to be mean, and have resounding regret when I'm needled into a response that I later find to have been bordering on rude or hateful. That is a small admission to the fact that I am indeed capable of it.

[elmey.livejournal.com]

You're being very Yoda like today :)

One thought per day isn't a bad accomplishment!

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I am not Yoda like. My sentences in correct order are. :-)

I was just reading this story on the L.A. Times and for some reason I was reminded how often we will say about ourselves "I'm this" or "I'm that," and one of those things is "I'm open to criticism." Then when the person is criticized and lashes out, and you call them on it, the response is "But that wasn't really criticism, it was this-other-thing-I'm-allowed-to-be-mad-about." If we believe ourselves to be one way, and disallow all evidence to the contrary - well, we're perfect, then, aren't we?

Because I know people like that, I think about this - and you can bet I look in the mirror, because I have a tendency to minimize my own flaws or justify my own behavior too! So, you know, makes ya think.

[elmey.livejournal.com]

It can be painful to learn how to process criticism, that's true. I can accept it better in some areas than in others.

In the realm of fanfic, I've come to believe the reaction is often a function of why people write. Some are fulfilling needs that have nothing to do with wanting to become a better writer, or even communicating better for that matter. So while they might say they're open to criticism, when it comes they don't look at it as a critique of the writing but of them personally. I always tiptoe until I know the person well.

Why they say they're open to criticism I don't know.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I think they know they're "supposed" to say it, and be it, but many people find their first taste of real literary criticism quite a blow. I judge who's going to improve by whether they get past that ouch moment and go "Okay, I see your point here - what do you think about this?" rather than "What do YOU know?"

[shayheyred.livejournal.com]

What you say is so true. I've said things like "I enjoyed your fic -- there are just a couple of things that pulled me out of it, such as the misuse of the noun "renown" for the adjective "renowned" and the repeated misspelling of "lose" as the incorrect "loose," for which the author excoriated me at great length. So when I read "constructive criticism welcome," I pause for a very long time.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

And really, Glennagirl's point about courtesy is valid - I don't pull punches when I edit, but I also try to be courteous about how I offer my comments, and to not use judgmental, personal language (like the language I use to myself when I'm editing my own stuff - the very air turns blue). That said, I've given up offering corrective advice to a writer I don't know, even when they post "all comments welcome" or "constructive criticism welcome," having, like you, been burned too often.

What I think of people who think their work is flawless is my business. But what I wish is that people would be honest about what they're willing to hear. Imagine that in the header: Feedback: Praise only! :-)

Backwards talk to used I

[spikesgirl58.livejournal.com]

I used to ask writers if they wanted constructive criticism or blind praise. It was interesting how many wanted the first in name only.

I'm not perfect. I use three to four betas most of the time. If you are making comments for the improvement of a story, that's a welcomed post. If you are bitching because I don't writer a character the way you think it should be written, then please don't bother.

That said, my nose still gets out of joint occasionally, but I've learned to deal with it off line and then. when I've got my big girl panty's on, I will respond to the comment. Took me a long time to learn that, though.

Re: Backwards talk to used I

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Yes - the nuances of characterization can be interesting discussion points, but it's hard to call one way "right" and another "wrong" - although when we get into the arena of Napoleon as a ballet dancer or weepy spineless Illya, I'd argue we're heading toward a hard line of "wrong." :-) I've enjoyed the work of writers who write IK and NS in ways I can't see them - but you have to be a pretty damned good writer to pull that off.

Re: Backwards talk to used I

[spikesgirl58.livejournal.com]

There are certain AU's that I have a hard time with and prefer to avoid those characterizations. However, if it's a 'standard' MFU story, I feel the writer needs to at least understand the basic nuances to the characters (s)he is writing.

Illya was never spineless or weepy during the show (well, one time, but that was drug enhanced and not his fault)and while Napoleon might be able to pull off a faux ballet dancer for the sake of a cover, well, it's just not a good look for him. It's the same with an evil Waverly who gleefully send men off to die. You have to know your characters inside and out before you can even begin to mess with them in that manner.

Re: Backwards talk to used I

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Agreed - it can be done. I could see evil Waverly - that is, evil from an outside perspective, but I can't see him doing something HE thought of as evil. I think of him as an "the end justifies the means" person, which can be good, and can turn ugly.

That's probably quite true of Napoleon and Illya. People who do - people who act, who affect things - can easily be on the side of the devil from certain perspectives.

Re: Backwards talk to used I

[spikesgirl58.livejournal.com]

To my way of thinking, you need to know the men very well before you can exercise that aspect of their personalities. I don't see Waverly as the kind grandfather. He is waging a war and his agents are his greatest weapon. At the same time, I think he cares of them and will not put them in harm's way for the sake of his own ego.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Oddly enough, while I hear a lot about that sort of behavior, I really haven't seen it much. Maybe it's the fandoms I'm in, or maybe because I don't follow that many LJ blogs (well, not that many by most people's standards, *g*) I've been shielded from it. The few times I've seen someone act that way, I don't stick around to hear more.


And I really do wish LJ would hurry up and fix the thing with the userpics!

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I probably shouldn't browse even as much as I do (which is considerably less than I used to) given how irritating I find a lot of behaviors.:-) You are wise to not get too immersed in this world.