Ooh - I have a question for writers and readers:

[leethet]

I've gotten the impression that it's considered kind of bad manners to admit you think your story isn't good. If you agree, what is the reasoning behind that? Note: I'm not here to attack anyone's position. I don't even have one myself except that if this is a thing, as I've kind of gleaned, I'm not sure I understand why it's a thing.

As ever, any sort of response and discussion is welcome in my LJ.

Comments

[spikesgirl58.livejournal.com]

I don't know if it's bad manners, but why would a writer not think their story isn't good? Good is so subjective to begin with. What would be the basis for comparison? I think my stuff is okay, but pales when compared to some of the heavy hitters of our fandom. But that's not me and that's not how I write.

I have sent stuff to betas to read for comment and suggestions because I don't like the way something is playing out. it's not that I don think it's good, rather it's not good enough yet. Writing is an on-going learning process.

To put up a story and then say it's not good is sort of like fishing around for praise and displaying false modesty when you get it.

And maybe now it's time for SG to go take a long nap because I'm not sure any of this makes sense.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

To put up a story and then say it's not good is sort of like fishing around for praise and displaying false modesty when you get it.

See, this was the only possible explanation that made sense. It's interesting what we assume about people's behavior, isn't it? I wonder why we wouldn't assume a person thought their story wasn't good because, from their perspective, it simply wasn't, and they're disappointed but being honest. Is that impossible?

Good is so subjective to begin with.

Of course, but I'm speaking of the author's own perspective, not of any absolute measure (as if there were one).

Edited for further response.

[spikesgirl58.livejournal.com]

Obviously, it's the only one that makes sense to me. If I didn't think a story was good, I certainly wouldn't post it and then call attention to it by telling people it isn't good. That's just a little weird.

Is it impossible... anything is possible, given the time, energy, and money. I've put up sets that I wasn't entirely pleased with, but ran out of time and then scoffed at praise because I knew I could do better.

If the story was part of some writing exercise and was timed... maybe if the writer wasn't feeling well or hadn't gotten enough sleep.

Honestly, I'm at a loss.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I've always been a bit of two minds about this - that whole 'oh, I know this is rubbish but I'm going to post it anyway' thing always grates on me. It comes across as either 'I don't give a shit about what anyone thinks but me' or 'please be nice to me, regardless of how little effort I have put in' and neither of these sit well with me. Keep your insecurities to yourself, like the rest of us! ;)

[leethet.livejournal.com]

:-) But neither of those are insecurities, are they? One is either confidence or arrogance (the latter type of person isn't likely to say "this story's not very good") and the other is lazy self-entitlement.

Hm ... see, I've posted stories that I don't think are very good. They're not the best I am capable of, though they're the best I was capable of at the time, but they had to go up (a challenge or something - this is why I usually don't do them!) so up they went. So why is it wrong for me to acknowledge that in my opinion they're not very good? Why is that wrong? Why is it OK for me to say "I think this is one of my best stories" and not OK for me to say "I think this is one of my worst stories"?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[elmey.livejournal.com]

Is that a thing? We so seldom discuss writing in any detail in the public parts of the fandom so I've never seen it brought up.

I've never been afraid to admit that it could have been better. Because frankly, I feel that way about all my stories, more for some than others. That's not to say I think they're bad--I wouldn't put up anything I'm truly embarrassed by. But I know sometimes I don't have the technical resources to do certain scenes the way I'd like to be able to do them, and sometimes the phrasing isn't quite right--but there's only so much time you can spend on one sentence and things like that.

With thoughtful commenters who are up for a discussion, I don't see why I shouldn't bring that up. Though I suppose under certain circumstances it might seem ungrateful to bring up your story's faults. Context is everything?

eta: I see everyone else is talking about something slightly different. Posting the story with a disclaimer. I wouldn't do that for a serious finished story, I don't see the point. If it's clearly a draft, that's different.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree with the distinction you draw attention to. Putting "This isn't very good" in a header seems pointless and odd, somehow. Just as "this is a great story!" seems odd. Let the reader decide, at that point (not that a writer isn't allowed to have an opinion on his or her own work! It just doesn't need to be part of the header).

But so many assumptions seem to be attached to the idea that a writer might feel - well, might state - something s/he did isn't very good, and I guess I don't buy into a lot of those assumptions (for myself, of course - who can say what other people's motivations are?).

Edited for clarity.

[elmey.livejournal.com]

Well if you ever wanted to start a discussion on a specific story (or specific technical point), I wouldn't think it strange at all, I'd chime right in :)

[venturous1.livejournal.com]

there is the fishing for reassurance thing, and then there is asking for what you need - sincere feedback, opinions, places to improve.

as much as I love fandom's code of positive feedback, it s sometimes difficult to get helpful suggestions.

my favorite writing coach and friend encourages us to 'ask questions' - if something doesnt scan right, if something is vague or confusing, address it in the form of a question. maybe that's a way to ask for constructive input.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

as much as I love fandom's code of positive feedback, it s sometimes difficult to get helpful suggestions.

Is it ever! Although even if a person might have good feedback to offer, I respect that they might not have the time or the energy at that point to favor me (the writer) with their assistance. I'd value it, but really, they probably have better things to do with their time, and I don't blame them! That's why it's such a treasure when an intelligent informed reader offers critical feedback. And why it irks me so that such folks have been slapped down by self-absorbed special snowflakes so often that they've STOPPED offering it.

I mean, am I the only writer who has ever profited personally from someone's comments not only on her own work but on other people's work? More than once I've look at a comment on someone else's stuff and gone "Oh - I do that too! Good point!" This is why discussion of the craft is so valuable, and fun besides.

Or, as elmey mentioned ... I need to get that some people don't care to improve, or believe they don't need it (or somehow imagine that the world thinks they're perfect, hence public criticism is somehow revealing some tragic secret that will result in disaster? Who knows how such folks view that? Not I).

Sigh.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

On the whole, I don't like when a writer does that. As several people have stated, it comes across as false modesty. If you think it's that bad, either don't post it or get a beta and try to make it better.

But having said that, I do have a story that I haven't posted to an archive because I do think it's pretty bad (my first zine story.) If I ever did decide to do so, out of a sense of completion, I think I would add a note, "reader beware," or something to that effect.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

And if that story was part of a challenge and you had to post it?

And you know how hard it is to find good help these days - that is, beta help. :-) Though I don't use them myself, I'm an advocate, but I understand very well how hard it is to find one and how few who're willing are capable.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Then I'd post it, but without comment, and let the reader decide whether she likes it or not.

But I suppose I've been lucky. I've managed to find very good betas in all my fandoms.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Yes, I do agree with you that "I'm not proud of this one" shouldn't be in a header field of any sort. I just meant acknowledging in general (in a discussion, like here) that you're not pleased with how a story came out. Announcements or flags "Warning: Story not good!" would just be weird, for some reason. :-) But then to me it's just as weird when people put "Warning: Very disturbing, dark, gritty" or whatever in their headers. In theory a story could be those things, if it's well written. But let the reader be the judge of whether you've pulled off your intent, when it comes to warnings or headers. I always hear Patsy from AbFab. "I'll be the judge of that."

[leethet.livejournal.com]

And although I do understand what you mean about false modesty, it's a shame that this world is such that true modesty - or, if that sounds too Victorian, an accurate ability to judge one's own work by fairly universal (if professional) standards - is an unbelievable motive.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

But wouldn't someone who was truly modest not say anything? Or if they really thought that they were that bad a writer, they wouldn't write at all? Yes, I know, some people do it for fun. Actually, I imagine most of us do. But how much fun is something if we do it badly?

We all probably have people who write better than we do, and people who write worse, so you either work at getting better or decide that you're comfortable with your level of writing skill and leave it at that.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I guess if it's OK to say "I think I did well in that story" it should be OK to say "I don't think that's a very good story of mine." I'm not sure it really has anything to do with modesty. It's honesty, that's all. Isn't that an OK thing to be honest about? Maybe it's because I enjoy discussing the craft of writing. I don't feel like it's wrong to open the door on the bones of the work, including whether I think I did well or not. Thinking I wrote a story that isn't very good isn't the same thing as thinking I was a bad writer (although, hell, as you say, with fandom, you could be, or think you are, a bad writer and still do it for the fun of it. I'm a lousy pool player but man, I love to play).

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I think it's totally acceptable to say that you do, or don't, think a particular story of yours is good in a discussion on writing. It's what you're discussing after all. In that context, I would take it at face value.

But I think that's different from adding it to a story you've just posted. Really, I think if I saw on a post that the writer didn't think it was very good, I'd probably not read the story.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I think if I saw on a post that the writer didn't think it was very good, I'd probably not read the story.

I think I might at least sample it out of morbid curiosity. :-) Y'know? Or if I were familiar with their work. Although that, too, probably, is just my interest in the craft - I might want to see if I thought they'd gone south too, or if I could tell in what way.