Sheesh

[leethet]

There's so much bad feeling between slash and gen (and particularly between perceived slash and gen) in this fandom that I wonder if it isn't a good thing when those two "camps" are wholly separate, the way they are in other fandoms. Then at least one side doesn't get hit by the other's vitriol all the time.

I have trouble fathoming people's need to be "right" when it comes to something that is so clearly a matter of personal taste.

Sigh...

Comments

[frau-flora.livejournal.com]

I have trouble fathoming people's need to be "right" when it comes to something that is so clearly a matter of personal taste.

This is something I´ve often wondered about myself. I love slash but I wouldn´t even think of attacking others for liking gen. Who am I to tell people that they´re right or wrong? It always amuses me, though, when one of these debates turns into a religious war, which happens quite frequently.

I wonder if it isn't a good thing when those two "camps" are wholly separate

But how would you manage to keep them apart? :-)

Then at least one side doesn't get hit by the other's vitriol all the time.

Has this happened to you lately?

[green-key.livejournal.com]

I love that picture of Napoleon. rawr!

[green-key.livejournal.com]

Your last comment to the list --about the guys being spies and that being an integral part of their lives-- hit on exactly my point for enjoying pre-slash/pseudo slash/gen-slash/whatever minutae label apparently must be slapped on it now besides slash in MFU. The cause they fight for is the most important aspect of their lives, at least in my interpretation of the show. They would die for their cause and they'd sacrifice each other for their cause. My inner tragic romantic loves it -- and what's not slashy about that? It's the ultimate sacrifice. It's hard to completely ignore that fact in stories unless authors choose to write the guys on vacation, but even Terbuf canon tells us vacations are no safe haven for UNCLE agents.

And I'm getting rambly -- maybe I should just post to the list instead of hogging your LJ. *g*

There's so much bad feeling between slash and gen (and particularly between perceived slash and gen) in this fandom that I wonder if it isn't a good thing when those two "camps" are wholly separate, the way they are in other fandoms.

I wouldn't say that gen/slash debate is necessarily stronger in this fandom, just that communities mixing gen and slash together means this debate is going to rise more often than other fandoms.

There are definite pros and cons to the mixing of gen and slash. It's been nice to get to know more fans by the mixing, but at the same time some slash fen I've chatted with feel inhibited to speak their mind in mixed chats and panels. The truth is, slash and gen fen approach stories and outlooks on the episodes differently, and while a mixing of slash and gen fen can give a general, overall sort of feeling, they often don't touch on specifics for either preference, which is disappointing in its lacking. It's nice to see a fandom trying to include everyone (to an extent, but that's another tangent), but there are some things gen fans like to talk about that slash fans do not, and most certainly vice versa. Some separation is not always the bad thing MFU seems to perceive it to be.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say that gen/slash debate is necessarily stronger in this fandom, just that communities mixing gen and slash together means this debate is going to rise more often than other fandoms.

Yeah. It's not that we're worse people, here in MFU, but that in other fandoms they had the sense to bring more than one lifeboat. :)

[kelliem.livejournal.com]

Granted, I just joined the mfuslash list and am not familiar with longstanding patterns in the fandom, but I didn't see a lot of bad feeling in the posts that I've read on this topic the last few days. Just people trying very hard to explain their personal preferences and wishing there was more out there to meet that particular taste. A couple of people got maybe a tad more vehement than needed, but it's nothing like some of the bad feelings I've seen on other lists-- sometimes not even between slash and gen, but often between Slash Pairing A and slash pairing B.

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

I wonder if it isn't a good thing when those two "camps" are wholly separate

Would that be even possible since so many folks read both and even write both?

Perhaps, rather than two camps, it's more of a continuum with a bell curve.

And I would venture this occurs because for many fans (though certainly not all) affection for MFU trumps everything else.

[dinahmt.livejournal.com]

(and particularly between perceived slash and gen)

I think this is the crucial point - what people perceive as slash and gen.

To many of us, if there is a sexual relationship, either explicit or understood, then a story is slash. To others, if the relationship is not the main thread of the story, then the story comes under the heading gen/slash or slash/gen. I really do think a new labelling category might be called for to avoid these arguments.

I think, personally, that it is perfectly acceptable to set a relationship story within the context of an 'affair' and call it slash but it seems that there are different camps. Surely this is all right so long as each camp respects the other's point of view.

Perhaps we should try and think of a more explicit labelling system to avoid disappointment on either side, particularly in zines.

Maybe...

[leethet.livejournal.com]

...but then you get into the minutiae of labelling everything so darn specifically...maybe I'm just reading more upset into this than there really is. Maybe these people who keep telling us we're writing slash wrong ("Here's how it should be done!")aren't as hard-nosed about it as they sound. *g*

It just seems like so often that someone comes along and says "It's not really slash unless it's done like this!" rather than "Gee, this story didn't focus on the relationship as much as I'd've liked." I just get the impression that I'm (this is I in rather a general sense) being told my stuff isn't "real" slash because someone used a gun in the story, y'know? It seems to be a recurring theme -- not directed at me personally, but hell, I'm one o' they darn "action" slashers, so I might as well respond. Why don't I just stick to gen if I'm going to actually include what they do for a living in the story? Then I get told my gen is slashy. Sheesh. I think (since stringent opinion is the order of the day *g*) there should be less labelling and more of people getting over it. It's a story. Start the darn story, and if you don't like it, do what I do and fling it across the room (metaphorically, if necessary) with a sotto voce curse. I mean, if you feel afterward that you must post the statement that those who write "action-slash" should just stick to gen since that's what they're really doing anyway, feel free and all, but ... sigh ... maybe if more care were taken to phrase these "facts" as the opinions they are, normally lazy and phlegmatic people like me wouldn't feel the need to "defend" our intent (as to whether our intent comes across in our stories, well, that truly is another issue).
Then again, here I am ranting that people rant too much. I feel better, though. Ahhh...

Re: Maybe...

[lyrebird.livejournal.com]

Shrug. The expression of a strong opinion does not necessarily invalidate anyone else's opinion. It's just an opinion. It's nothing to be afraid of.

As for getting over it...it's taken me a number of years to realise why some critically acclaimed slash stories do not work for me. I have puzzled over it for a long time. So to actually come up with an answer is a revelation for me. I like posting about such issues, exploring my likes and dislikes. This does not mean that every writer has to write what I like. I'm not being so unreasonable as that.

However, I think that a sensitivity to any criticism of action plot is going to affect one's ability to analyse fic, including one's own. For example, if you're so sensitive to comments that imply, however indirectly, that an action plot in a particular story detracted from the relationship plot, then you're probably too emotionally involved to study the reasoning behind the comment. There's the danger of misinterpreting the comment as an insult, when it was merely intended as one reader's impression. It doesn't mean that the action was 'wrong' per se. Maybe it wasn't well integrated into the other storyline. Maybe the shift between one plot thread to another seemed too jarring.

It's important to get some perspective. Leaping to conclusions and assuming the worst of others isn't going to help. And if you really disagree, well, so be it. But telling others to 'get over it'...doesn't strike me as very useful or conducive to discussion.

If you'd rather not listen, then don't read. It applies to opinions just as much as fanfic.

Hey Clare!

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I wrote a lengthy, point by point rebuttal of nearly everything you said, and LJ ate it. :)

Then I thought. Hell, it's for the best. All I need to say is:

By now you should know that the last thing I want is to silence the voicing of ANY opinions. I was merely objecting to the assertion that "action slash" is gen (that was a statement, not the voicing of opinion). I understand if Ro's a pal of yours, and if you agree with her classification of "action-slash" as gen in sheeps' clothing. Fair enough, as a viewpoint. But not as a fact. I wasn't attacking her or suggesting she should remain silent. Never. I was simply rebutting (on the channels) the assertion that "action-slash" is gen. It ain't in my case. Can't speak for others, don't wish to. Also don't wish to silence others -- not here, not anywhere.

And here in LJ land, I was just voicing a general opinion about opinions being presented as fact. It bugs me. That's all.
Have a good day.

Re: Hey Clare!

[lyrebird.livejournal.com]

I understand if Ro's a pal of yours, and if you agree with her classification of "action-slash" as gen in sheeps' clothing.

Just to clarify, Ro isn't a pal of mine. Although I have 'friended' her, I don't know her at all...like most of the people on my 'friends' list.

I think when you have been on the lists for long enough, you learn to become desensitised when someone bags something you love. I used to post all the time when someone slammed sex as boring and predictable and cliched. But it never changed anyone's mind. They just wanted to rant and let off steam. Which is what Ro is doing now. She hasn't read any MfU slash in years. If she had, she would have read your work and Nat's and RAC's. Look at her glowing praise of Chicago Affair, for example.

The slash-gen debate will never go away. And it can be interesting to hear views from the other side. Opinions, facts, theory...I find it all fascinating. To each their own.

Re: Hey Clare!

[leethet.livejournal.com]

The slash-gen debate will never go away. And it can be interesting to hear views from the other side. Opinions, facts, theory...I find it all fascinating. To each their own.

And with that I totally agree.