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leethetThanks to Nat who felt my icons were a trifle stale. :) Whee!
I have a question that's been asked before (what a surprise). I was thinking, of Napoleon and Illya, supposing they found themselves realizing that (despite, perhaps, having never found a man sexually attractive before) they were very attracted to their partner. Which of them, do you think, would have most trouble expressing it? Not so much admitting it to himself (I think they'd be neck and neck with that) but admitting it to the other (if he believed the other to be straight)? I was thinking that because I have this image in my head of Napoleon as the braver of the two in that sort of circumstance. He'd just say it, damn the consequences. Whereas Illya, though equally brave in general, would be less inclined to admit it aloud -- because of the consequences.
I have a question that's been asked before (what a surprise). I was thinking, of Napoleon and Illya, supposing they found themselves realizing that (despite, perhaps, having never found a man sexually attractive before) they were very attracted to their partner. Which of them, do you think, would have most trouble expressing it? Not so much admitting it to himself (I think they'd be neck and neck with that) but admitting it to the other (if he believed the other to be straight)? I was thinking that because I have this image in my head of Napoleon as the braver of the two in that sort of circumstance. He'd just say it, damn the consequences. Whereas Illya, though equally brave in general, would be less inclined to admit it aloud -- because of the consequences.
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Date: 19 August 2005 11:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 20 August 2005 12:20 am (UTC)Personally, I think that one is so obviously a joke, I wouldn't take it as a serious overture and neither does Solo.
As I said in another comment, I don't think I've read a story in which Solo was the gay or bi one and Illya was completely straight. I think if that scenario were the case, I really don't think Illya would come around as Solo usually does in stories when the scenario is reversed or when they are or both bi/gay. Often, when they are both straight but somehow find each other, Illya is receptive.
IMO, Solo will go as far as Illya allows.
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Date: 20 August 2005 01:21 am (UTC)Well I couldn´t. I can still see the expression on his face.
I think that one is so obviously a joke
Is it really? It strikes me as somewhat out of character for Illya, but maybe that´s just me.
I don't think I've read a story in which Solo was the gay or bi one and Illya was completely straight.
Neither have I. Somebody ought to explore that scenario! ;-)
IMO, Solo will go as far as Illya allows.
That´s true. But it doesn´t really contradict what I was saying, does it? I mean Illya can make the first move but still be reluctant afterwards, for example if Solo is coming on too strong.
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Date: 20 August 2005 02:15 am (UTC)but admitting it to the other (if he believed the other to be straight)?
Even tho I agree with leethet about Solo being braver, I think it would be Illya who would say something. Because, even if Solo is straight, because of his... uh... flexibility, there's always hope.
If Illya is the straight one, however, he's not going to be interested so what's the point in saying anything?
NsandIK and I have talked about writing a story in which we cross universes, inserting my straight Solo into her universe and inserting her gay Solo into mine.
We suspect that my straight Solo might be seduced by her gay Illya, but her gay Solo will have a difficult time with my straight Illya.
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Date: 20 August 2005 04:12 am (UTC)Seriously, that is an interesting point of view. While I'm inclined to agree -- with the theory in my head that Napoleon is more of a hedonist, and if he already trusts IK as much as he trusts anyone, and certainly more than he trusts the women he sleeps with, he might go for it if IK wants it -- I'm not sure I couldn't buy it the other way, with IK willing to give what NS wants because of their attachment ... hm ... I admit I can't predicate it on a "straight" IK or NS, because if I'm thinking with my slash cap on, they're both at least amenable to teh gay. :) That scenario -- wholly straight NS or IK with interested other -- isn't one I've ever explored, probably because if I did it would result in terrible disappointment or brokenheartedness. :)
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Date: 20 August 2005 04:58 am (UTC)That was deliberate :)
I'm not sure I couldn't buy it the other way, with IK willing to give what NS wants because of their attachment ...
For me, not if IK is definitely straight. I don't think sex is that big a deal to him and I don't really think he's defined by it no matter what his inclinations. And under those circumstances, I don't think Solo would make a move to seduce him [again, no one in my memory has tackled that scenario].
On the other hand, I could see a straight Solo being willing to experiment depending upon the circumstances but that would necessitate a bi/gay Illya who would also probably have to make the first move or send out definite signals.
One last observation: at this point in the fandom, right now, I think there is less variation in Solo across the board, even between slash and gen, than Illya. That's why I think the characterization of Illya is the one that determines what happens between them sexually.
Of course, there aren't many Solo-centric gen writers but speaking for myself, the Solo I read in slash stories is certainly recognizable. It's Illya who seems in gen stories quite different than he is in slash.
I find this rather curious, actually, because everytime folks take the Myers Briggs test for the characters for me, the view of Illya is overwhelmingly consistent among fans while the view of Solo ranges across the board.
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Date: 20 August 2005 05:16 am (UTC)Although ... why not? If Solo was interested, and felt Illya didn't worry much about sex one way or the other, why wouldn't Napoloeon make a move? (granted all the standard reasons that they might not say anything, the threat of outing, risking partnership, all that) It seems to me IK's ambivalence, or philosophical attitude if you like, would permit at least the polite opening of the topic. Napoleon's ego might not want to be bothered trying to attain someone who's indifferent, of course -- or he might consider changing that indifference to interest to be a challenge...
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Date: 20 August 2005 01:24 pm (UTC)I think (and once again, YMMV)because if Solo knew or was pretty sure that IK would not be receptive,he would not want to piss IK off or at least seriously irritate him. IK already expresses annoyance at Solo's moves to seduce others; why make it worse by aiming the focus at him?
A common trop in slash stories is for IK to tell Solo he won't be seduced and doesn't want to be treated like Solo's women. Because the sex is welcome however, they get past that. But suppose it wasn't welcome? I mean, under this scenario, we're talking about a straight guy, right? Not one even with inclinations.
At the very least, it would introduce a tension into their partnership that was unnecessary with no pay-off for either one of them, so why pursue it?
he might consider changing that indifference to interest to be a challenge...
Don't you think that would be rather insulting to Illya? [Again, we are theorizing an IK on the far low end of the Kinsey scale.] And it would put Illya in a terribly awkward position. A gay friend would not do that to their good straight friend, just as the straight friend would be respectful to the gay one.
Even in a slash scenario, I would think Solo values IK far too much to seriously and deliberately try to seduce him. And IK is aware enough of his partner's behavior and habits to recognize when Solo is manipulating. I believe this is one of the things that keeps the partnership equal.
One can argue that, again, either slash or gen, Solo has 'seduced' IK to some extent [in a non-sexual way, as a friend] but that, I'd say, was not deliberate and nothing has occurred that IK hasn't recognized and allowed.
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Date: 20 August 2005 05:22 pm (UTC)Oh yeah. I don't mean that I'd do it or that I'd love that sort of a characterization, just that one could so interpret NS, and people have done.
The thing about "Seduction" though is it really does imply some level of willingness ... well, I take that back. In some scenarios it does (if a girl is 14, after all, how much knowledge of what she's getting into with a 25 year old guy can she have?) -- and I think with NS/IK any seduction would be, or become, obvious to the seducee well before anything happened. Therefore it would become a dance rather than a deception. So I could see either one trying it, knowing that they might be rejected at any stage.
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Date: 20 August 2005 05:05 am (UTC)Which would also be unsatisfying to most slash readers I'm guessing.
Are there ever many slash stories with unhappy endings or must they, like traditional romance, end happily? If there are sad or unsatisfying endings, are they usually followed by at least a happy ended sequel?
I remember that Suzi Lovett story that was left ambiguous. I'm trying to remember if there are any similar ones.
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Date: 20 August 2005 05:13 am (UTC)happy endings
Date: 21 August 2005 02:24 am (UTC)my gay Solo and st crispins' straight Illya
Date: 21 August 2005 02:36 am (UTC)My gay Solo would be in a world of hurt with your straight Illya. Wow. The mind boggles. And imagine the conflict of him trying to communicate and understand that whole different Illya? Yikes. Yikes and ouch. Talk about needing a happy ending. LOL!
Re: my gay Solo and st crispins' straight Illya
Date: 17 September 2005 03:12 am (UTC)Re: my gay Solo and st crispins' straight Illya
Date: 17 September 2005 04:01 am (UTC)