SerendipiT

Yeah, you really could. I can absolutely see that take, and stories have used it very effectively. For some reason I like (at least at this moment, while thinking about it *g*) this image in my head of Napoleon being absolutely unafraid of anything that's good, and love is good, whatever form it takes. I don't know why, and at another time I could easily see it differently, but "fearless Napoleon in a good cause" is just stuck in my head at the moment.

From:

But if that were true, I doubt Illya would broach the subject.

[A straight IK and a bi or gay NS ---has anyone ever written that? I don't think so]

As I said below, I think whatever happens is determined by Illya.

From:

gilda-elise.livejournal.com

I can see it going either way. Napoleon might have problems getting over the image of himself as a lady killer while Illya doesn't have any of that to overcome. The flip side would be that Napoleon is probably more comfortable with his sexuality and would be more inclined to go with the flow whereas for Illya it would be unknown territory.

From:

It's funny, isn't it? It really could very plausibly go either way. Equally, IK could be portrayed as having emotional issues that would prevent it (because his past is so enigmatic and his sexuality so little explored in canon), or he could be portrayed as being European/well-traveled/sophisticated enough to shrug and say "love is love."

I love it that such a broad palette is open to writers; let's hear it for vague canon. :)

From:

frau-flora.livejournal.com

Dare we hope that you´ll make good use of this broad palette in the near future? ;-)

From:

I have always maintained that whether or not it's slash depends upon Illya.
He's the one who determines what happens, no matter how he chooses to determine it. Solo would probably go along with any scenario.

From:

frau-flora.livejournal.com

I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly if I hadn´t happened to watch Cherry Blossom tonight. In that very slashy scene towards the end Illya takes the initiative and invites Napoleon to, um, get a little closer. ;-) And Solo does not look like he would go along with it.

From:

Some folks have interpreted Solo's response in that episode differently and more positvely.

Personally, I think that one is so obviously a joke, I wouldn't take it as a serious overture and neither does Solo.

As I said in another comment, I don't think I've read a story in which Solo was the gay or bi one and Illya was completely straight. I think if that scenario were the case, I really don't think Illya would come around as Solo usually does in stories when the scenario is reversed or when they are or both bi/gay. Often, when they are both straight but somehow find each other, Illya is receptive.

IMO, Solo will go as far as Illya allows.

From:

frau-flora.livejournal.com

Some folks have interpreted Solo's response in that episode differently and more positvely.

Well I couldn´t. I can still see the expression on his face.

I think that one is so obviously a joke

Is it really? It strikes me as somewhat out of character for Illya, but maybe that´s just me.

I don't think I've read a story in which Solo was the gay or bi one and Illya was completely straight.

Neither have I. Somebody ought to explore that scenario! ;-)

IMO, Solo will go as far as Illya allows.

That´s true. But it doesn´t really contradict what I was saying, does it? I mean Illya can make the first move but still be reluctant afterwards, for example if Solo is coming on too strong.

From:

I just re-read the original question:

but admitting it to the other (if he believed the other to be straight)?

Even tho I agree with leethet about Solo being braver, I think it would be Illya who would say something. Because, even if Solo is straight, because of his... uh... flexibility, there's always hope.

If Illya is the straight one, however, he's not going to be interested so what's the point in saying anything?

NsandIK and I have talked about writing a story in which we cross universes, inserting my straight Solo into her universe and inserting her gay Solo into mine.

We suspect that my straight Solo might be seduced by her gay Illya, but her gay Solo will have a difficult time with my straight Illya.

From:

You said "insert." Hee hee...

Seriously, that is an interesting point of view. While I'm inclined to agree -- with the theory in my head that Napoleon is more of a hedonist, and if he already trusts IK as much as he trusts anyone, and certainly more than he trusts the women he sleeps with, he might go for it if IK wants it -- I'm not sure I couldn't buy it the other way, with IK willing to give what NS wants because of their attachment ... hm ... I admit I can't predicate it on a "straight" IK or NS, because if I'm thinking with my slash cap on, they're both at least amenable to teh gay. :) That scenario -- wholly straight NS or IK with interested other -- isn't one I've ever explored, probably because if I did it would result in terrible disappointment or brokenheartedness. :)

From:

You said "insert." Hee hee...

That was deliberate :)

I'm not sure I couldn't buy it the other way, with IK willing to give what NS wants because of their attachment ...

For me, not if IK is definitely straight. I don't think sex is that big a deal to him and I don't really think he's defined by it no matter what his inclinations. And under those circumstances, I don't think Solo would make a move to seduce him [again, no one in my memory has tackled that scenario].

On the other hand, I could see a straight Solo being willing to experiment depending upon the circumstances but that would necessitate a bi/gay Illya who would also probably have to make the first move or send out definite signals.

One last observation: at this point in the fandom, right now, I think there is less variation in Solo across the board, even between slash and gen, than Illya. That's why I think the characterization of Illya is the one that determines what happens between them sexually.

Of course, there aren't many Solo-centric gen writers but speaking for myself, the Solo I read in slash stories is certainly recognizable. It's Illya who seems in gen stories quite different than he is in slash.

I find this rather curious, actually, because everytime folks take the Myers Briggs test for the characters for me, the view of Illya is overwhelmingly consistent among fans while the view of Solo ranges across the board.

From:

For me, not if IK is definitely straight. I don't think sex is that big a deal to him and I don't really think he's defined by it no matter what his inclinations. And under those circumstances, I don't think Solo would make a move to seduce him [again, no one in my memory has tackled that scenario].

Although ... why not? If Solo was interested, and felt Illya didn't worry much about sex one way or the other, why wouldn't Napoloeon make a move? (granted all the standard reasons that they might not say anything, the threat of outing, risking partnership, all that) It seems to me IK's ambivalence, or philosophical attitude if you like, would permit at least the polite opening of the topic. Napoleon's ego might not want to be bothered trying to attain someone who's indifferent, of course -- or he might consider changing that indifference to interest to be a challenge...

From:

Although ... why not?

I think (and once again, YMMV)because if Solo knew or was pretty sure that IK would not be receptive,he would not want to piss IK off or at least seriously irritate him. IK already expresses annoyance at Solo's moves to seduce others; why make it worse by aiming the focus at him?

A common trop in slash stories is for IK to tell Solo he won't be seduced and doesn't want to be treated like Solo's women. Because the sex is welcome however, they get past that. But suppose it wasn't welcome? I mean, under this scenario, we're talking about a straight guy, right? Not one even with inclinations.

At the very least, it would introduce a tension into their partnership that was unnecessary with no pay-off for either one of them, so why pursue it?

he might consider changing that indifference to interest to be a challenge...

Don't you think that would be rather insulting to Illya? [Again, we are theorizing an IK on the far low end of the Kinsey scale.] And it would put Illya in a terribly awkward position. A gay friend would not do that to their good straight friend, just as the straight friend would be respectful to the gay one.

Even in a slash scenario, I would think Solo values IK far too much to seriously and deliberately try to seduce him. And IK is aware enough of his partner's behavior and habits to recognize when Solo is manipulating. I believe this is one of the things that keeps the partnership equal.

One can argue that, again, either slash or gen, Solo has 'seduced' IK to some extent [in a non-sexual way, as a friend] but that, I'd say, was not deliberate and nothing has occurred that IK hasn't recognized and allowed.

From:

Yeah, the issue really is that if one partner is straight, I'm inclined to say the other wouldn't want to risk all the good they have by attempting anything. They'd really need some hint or encouragement, because what they have is so important not just as a friendship (after all, people risk those all the time for the sake of sex) but as a very important work relationship, doing a crucial job that means a great deal to both of them and that requires total trust.

he might consider changing that indifference to interest to be a challenge...

Don't you think that would be rather insulting to Illya?

Oh yeah. I don't mean that I'd do it or that I'd love that sort of a characterization, just that one could so interpret NS, and people have done.

The thing about "Seduction" though is it really does imply some level of willingness ... well, I take that back. In some scenarios it does (if a girl is 14, after all, how much knowledge of what she's getting into with a 25 year old guy can she have?) -- and I think with NS/IK any seduction would be, or become, obvious to the seducee well before anything happened. Therefore it would become a dance rather than a deception. So I could see either one trying it, knowing that they might be rejected at any stage.

From:

would result in terrible disappointment or brokenheartedness. :)

Which would also be unsatisfying to most slash readers I'm guessing.

Are there ever many slash stories with unhappy endings or must they, like traditional romance, end happily? If there are sad or unsatisfying endings, are they usually followed by at least a happy ended sequel?

I remember that Suzi Lovett story that was left ambiguous. I'm trying to remember if there are any similar ones.

From:

There's certainly no rule that they have to end happily. I suppose they tend to because of that element of wish fulfilment that is a part of fanfic writing in general, and particularly a part of "romantic" fanfic, whether gen or slash. We can be depressed anytime, after all. I freely admit preferring a happy ending, though I won't refuse to read a story that doesn't.

From:

Like

leethet I prefer happy endings. I get way too much of the other stuff in real life. But I think MFU fiction has branched out into a lot of different areas, with writers experimenting with other types of "genre" in both slash and gen. That is why we get death stories occasionally, and AUs. But I am a dyed in the wool happy ending person. If I'm going to read it, I at least want a hint of a happy ending (or enough nuance for me to supply my own...which is what I do in my MFU fic). :)

From:

A difficult time? What an understatement! LOL!
My gay Solo would be in a world of hurt with your straight Illya. Wow. The mind boggles. And imagine the conflict of him trying to communicate and understand that whole different Illya? Yikes. Yikes and ouch. Talk about needing a happy ending. LOL!

From:

laughingacademy.livejournal.com

My curiosity has been piqued. Where can I read your stories?

From:

In case they don't see this, I believe Linda's stories are only in zines (can someone back me up on this?) and Cindy's are both in zines and online. Links can be found at www.file40.net. And both are, indeed, well worth reading.

From:

tgabrielle.livejournal.com

This is another good topic, Lee. I think it could go either way in fanfic and has. One could imagine a set of circumstances where Napoleon makes the first move and an equally plausible scenario where Illya does. While Illya is not the ladies' man of the show, this does not mean he is clueless, gay, or finds sex less important. He may, in fact, take sex more seriously-- or not. These attitudes are subject to interpretation and hardly cut & dried. They both flirt with each other on the show and it is possible to see how they would handle this spark between them from various and opposite directions. There's just not a simple or obvious conclusion to be drawn.

From:

There's just not a simple or obvious conclusion to be drawn.

Yeah. Don't you love it? I think we do get some information about both of them from the show, much of it indirect and ambiguous, nowhere near enough to really pigeonhole either character. Almost no characterization throws me out except making one of both of them assholes, or making them dislike one another; that never works for me. Other than that, anything goes. :)

From:

He may, in fact, take sex more seriously

Actually, I'd agree with this. I want to make clear that when I said I thought Illya was less defined by sex, I didn't mean he was sexless or that sex was unimportant, or that it had no place in his place in his life. But I do think he sees it differently than Solo.

Once again, YMMV.

From:

dinahmt.livejournal.com

My money would be on Napoleon having the most trouble, given a straight Illya - say if he were the one attracted - because he comes over as the archetypal ladies' man, an image he works hard at projecting. If however, Illya were to be gay or bi and giving out the right signals, then I think Napoleon would risk his image for the experience. Illya seems to be the one who is more up front with his emotions on the show, contrary to popular fanon, so I think it would depend pretty much on him.

From:

It could go either way, for sure. There's a defensible characterization in either direction. It's hard to see either actually making a move -- a direct proposition -- on the other if that other is believed straight. I think neither would be willing to risk the partnership and friendship. Having it come out inadvertently is more persuasive, to me -- and which of the two would be more mortified? Hm...yeah, it could still plausibly be either of them. Like you, I perceive Napoleon to have an investment in the ladies man image, but that could include a cosmopolitan interest in sex per se ... yeah, it's a fuzzy area, because equally IK's reticence could indicate disinterest in sex, prudishness, or a total open calm about sex in all its permutations. There's ammunition to go either way with both of them. Isn't that great?

From:

The idea of Solo as gay and IK as straight is interesting, although if I were to accept that as a scenario, they would never get together. (My Solo is gay but came out late in life, and my IK is gay. Solo may have a toe or two dipped in the bi pool because he was able to have sex with women and appeared to enjoy himself before he came out, but he was full of angst and suffering. )

The reason I say they would never get together (with Solo gay and IK straight) is two-fold: 1) they would respect each other's sexuality (assuming IK didn't request a new partner when he found out Solo was gay); and 2) in my experience straightness and gayness run pretty deep, and the idea of sex with a partner of the "incorrect" gender would probably strike them both as either laughable or squicky. :)

I agree with Lee that Solo would be the braver of the two, and he might even discuss the possibility with IK, but once IK explained that he was straight ("No. End of discussion," might be his explanation ), Solo would surely accept that and back away. AFter all, we've seen his attitude even on the series. Both people have to want it and agree that they are having fun. :)

Would IK want to experiment? I mean, a truly straight IK? I think not. (Remember, my opinion only.) And if Solo is gay, he would also prefer a partner who is gay. I doubt that they would experiment with each other in any way that would cause harm to their friendship.
In my AU, where IK is gay and Solo doesn't know what he is yet (early on), IK agonizes about coming out to Solo, and when he finally does, Solo doesn't self-realize in that moment (because he has no clue yet on a conscious level about his own sexuality), but he does profess his deep affection for IK. And that tender exchange allows IK to be openly gay around Solo, a huge bonus for him, a huge plus in his life, and it makes it possible for him to continue as Solo's partner and friend even though IK's love remains unrequited at that point. :)

From:

I have to admit your story (had to go look up the title, "Sleepless Nights," though I remember the story well*g*) was in the back of my mind when I was imagining scenarios, because I remember how ... well, how much IK really did not want to go into this. He was very reluctant, IIRC, and also I remember how very sad I was for IK because (at the end of that story, at least *g*) there seemed to be no chance for his love to be requited in the way he wanted. Without trying to suggest what you yourself intended in the story, I'd say it reflected the way I would see a gay IK telling a presumed-straight Napoleon -- he would be deeply deeply reluctant, in fact probably would not do it except under duress. Whereas (in my head) a gay Napoleon would perhaps offer up the possibility to a presumed straight IK in a gentle, feel very free to say no and I'll never mention it again, kind of way.
(And again, these perceptions, for me, are very flexible. I've been persuaded in stories of other scenarios, for sure)

From:

Okay, I'm just curious:

Again, presuming that one is straight and one is gay, why is coming out tied necessarily to a proposition and/or disappointment?

Couldn't the gay one come out with nothing more intended, the straight one shrugs and says, okay, that's fine, and then they go on as before, close friends but with separate sex lives?

I realize this isn't a satisfying slash scenario, but it doesn't necessarily have to be sad. In a way, that's what happens when they're both straight.

From: (Anonymous)

Again, presuming that one is straight and one is gay, why is coming out tied necessarily to a proposition and/or disappointment?

Oh, it isn't. It's just that that was my original question. It wouldn't at all have to be. :)

From:

Sorry, that was me above, not logged in. Duh.

From:

tgabrielle.livejournal.com

Again, presuming that one is straight and one is gay, why is coming out tied necessarily to a proposition and/or disappointment?

As to coming out per se that would certainly be the case. More usually in slash, however, they have sexual feelings for each other, so just coming out and agreeing to be friends with separate sex lives isn't going to quite fix the problem. How they act on said feelings has been told in slash fanfic from both Napoleon and Illya's POV; one of them eventually makes the first move, and it's farily equally divided as to which of them does so.

From:

And if Solo is gay, he would also prefer a partner who is gay.

Why?

In your universe there are also gay/straight partnerships that work very well.

From:

tgabrielle.livejournal.com

And if Solo is gay, he would also prefer a partner who is gay.

Why?

Indeed why? If Napoleon were gay he'd still prefer Illya, in whatever guise, as his partner, even if he were sorely tempted by him.

From:

I wasn't quite clear enough with that statement. I meant that if Solo is gay, he would also prefer a -sexual- partner who is gay (not an UNCLE or working partner). :) Sorry about that.

From: