Be afraid

[leethet]

Like all my fanfic thoughts, this is probably a dead horse kind of thing. But I was thinking that in gen hurt/comfort, there is a strong erotic element. It's not exactly sexual, but it's usually extremely physical -- much touching, much physical trust and intimacy. And I wonder if it's as close as nonslashers will get to slash. Any and all thoughts on the topic are welcome here.

Comments

[graculus.livejournal.com]

So what does your theory say about the people writing h/c where it's high on the h and fleeting on the c? That they're all sadists? ;)

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I suppose I was looking at the comfort side of it. :) I'm not sure about the high hurt/low comfort end, perhaps because it's not exactly my cup of tea. I like lots of hurt without it being melodramatic, and lots of manly nonweepy comfort ... which I think can be very sensual, very physical.

[dinahmt.livejournal.com]

There are certainly some gen writers for whom this is true. I think the h/c scenario allows physical contact (ie cuddling) without any sexual connotations (the guy's too sick/injured for sex so we're quite safe here).

What I find somewhat disquieting is h/c slash when they use energetic sex as a sort of panacea for all problems. It just doesn't ring true in many cases.

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

I think the h/c scenario allows physical contact (ie cuddling) without any sexual connotations (the guy's too sick/injured for sex so we're quite safe here).

Why do I guess it should remind me something? Actually; I think it's true, though I wasn't clearly aware of it in the beginning. Unfortunately somebody, more suspicious and more experienced, was aware of it for me.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Yes, although I don't want to sound as if I think this is what gen writers do because they're too chicken to write slash. I don't at all mean it that way. I mean only that h/c in gen has a way of fulfilling that longing for physical affection that, in slash, can be fulfilled in sexual ways. I really am specifically thinking of H/C in gen, as opposed to slash.

[frau-flora.livejournal.com]

Yes, although I don't want to sound as if I think this is what gen writers do because they're too chicken to write slash.

Well I don't know. To me some gen h/c reads like slash without the sex. I sometimes get the impression that authors (perhaps unconsciously) actually want to write slash but for whatever reason (social conventions, squeamishness?) can't. So they write ersatz slash with deep, often even romantic feelings between the partners but without involving certain body parts.

And I bet some of them would kill anyone who dared call their work slashy. ;-)

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

actually want to write slash but for whatever reason (social conventions, squeamishness?) can't

There may be instances when that's true, but overall, no, I don't think so. Believe it or not, the possibility of sex just doesn't occur (even unconsciously) to some writers.

But I do agree with Lee that H/C is about intimacy and since that's a large component of slash (indeed, the majority of fanfic) then there's certainly a relationship.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Believe it or not, the possibility of sex just doesn't occur (even unconsciously) to some writers.

What Cindy said. When I'm writing gen, I'm writing gen. The possibility of sex doesn't occur to the characters, because they're straight. It's just love and trust and caring and all that other good stuff. :)

[frau-flora.livejournal.com]

There may be instances when that's true,

But that's what I said. Or what I think I said. ;-) Of course I didn't mean to imply that this was the case with all gen h/c. But for me something I would call "slashgen" does exist. Of course I may be the only person who sees it that way.

the possibility of sex just doesn't occur (even unconsciously) to some writers.

It didn't occur to me when I accidentally read my very first slash story. I went "um, no thanks!" It took some really good stories to convince me.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Well, this is the thing. I don't like having my gen called slashy either. I'm not mortally offended or anything, but my gen is gen and my slash is slash, and never the twain shall sexually meet. But in my gen, if there's H/C, there is definitely that very physical element that I find satisfying in a sensual, if not actually erotic, way. Because I'm not in the heads of gen-only writers, it'd be rudely presumptuous of me to suggest they do this because they're too chicken to write slash. I do it too, after all, and it's not because I'm too chicken to write slash. *g* It's because, even in gen, I like to feel the love, and H/C is a way to physically bring them close. Physical closeness, after all, doesn't have to result in sex to be satisfying. In gen, it's just love. ;)

[frau-flora.livejournal.com]

Oh dear! It looks like I got myself in hot water there. ;-)

First of all, to clarify this, I wasn't talking about your gen. I'd provide some examples of what I meant but I don't want to "accuse" anyone publicly of writing what I call "slashgen" when I'm pretty sure the authors wouldn't like it at all.

I assume that when you use the word "love" in a gen context, you mean the love between brothers or friends but not the love between, well, lovers. There are gen stories, though, where 1) the physical element is strong and 2) the partnership has all attributes of a loving relationship (except the sex of course) and which I read as, don't know, maybe PG13 slash but which the author would never call slash because "she writes only gen". Does this make any sense?

Now, as I just said to Cindy, this is my own personal impression and I may be the only person who sees it that way.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

No hot water here! You're fully entitled to your views!
I think I understand your viewpoint, which you're entitled to as a reader. If you want to perceive some gen as slashy, you're certainly free to -- and you are definitely not the only one; readers have said it of my gen. I would draw the line only at suggesting the author is writing it this way as a sort of repressed slasher, or because she's afraid of writing "real" slash. That may be so in some cases, but it may very well not be so, and I'm always very leery of attributing motives or beliefs to an author based on his/her fiction. :) I've had people do that, very incorrectly, to me, so I'm leery of it. The author may simple feel they love each other as brothers. That's my gen. But again -- the reader is fully entitled to view it through whatever lens she pleases -- only please (this is not necessarily directed at you, Flora, but is a general comment) don't confuse readerly interpretation with writerly intention. They don't always match up. :)

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I wasn't alluding to you at all; my rather enimagtic post was a sort of private joke with Di who knows what happened to my current (and only) story I thought to be mildly h/c but was deemed suspiciously slashy by a severe publisher.

And by the way, I agree there must be a sexual component in most h/c stories...

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I agree there must be a sexual component in most h/c stories

I think I ought to have said simply sensual, rather than erotic -- because I was specifically referring to gen H/C. I mean, to me Napoleon comforting a hurt Illya is sort of erotic, but that doesn't mean I think the characters (again, in a gen story) find it that way, so I wouldn't suggest the author meant it that way, only that I find it sexy (not slashy)

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

In the story I was refering to, the whole situation is felt as embarassing and disturbing by Napoleon, while Illya is too sick to mind, and the result is (temporarily) more distance and wariness, not more closeness; so, I thought the physical intimacy was really not slash but was nonetheless deemed slashy by a strictly gen reviewer. I suppose she used the same argument (maybe not slash in itself but could be perceived as equivocal by some readers).

Personally, contrary to you, I love ambiguity, but it was not so in this case (too early in the partnership). If I ever write slash, it will be as unexplicit as possible, not because I positively dislike sex scenes but because I find the emotion stronger that way.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I don't mind ambiguity in a story. :) I just don't have it in the sexuality of the characters when I'm writing gen and slash. I know where their persuasion lies when I write them. That doesn't mean there can't be ambiguity in the story (of many sorts); it only means there's none in my mind as I'm writing. :)
However, I think I understand what you're saying about the story you're referring to -- and it is true that a gen story may be perceived by a reader as slashy. That's well and good. I only draw a line when a reader tries to tell me I wrote a slash story when I wrote a gen story. As ever, readers can think what they like. I just don't like other people telling me what I was thinking. :)

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

My feeling is that unless explicitly stated, slash is often in the eye of the beholder. Some folks see slash where others do not.

I don't really care whether or not someone finds something I wrote slashy. I know what I was thinking when I wrote it. Once it's out in the world, readers can provide whatever interpretation they desire.

Frankly, I'd rather that than not be read at all :)

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I don't really care whether or not someone finds something I wrote slashy. I know what I was thinking when I wrote it.

I entirely agree.

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

It's interesting in this talk of 'love' we're talking about between two people. What about the love of a cause?

See, that's what I find almost erotic. ''Tis a far far better thing I do..." and all that.

What goes on between Solo and Kuryakin I tend to just take for granted.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

It's interesting in this talk of 'love' we're talking about between two people. What about the love of a cause?

See, that's what I find almost erotic. ''Tis a far far better thing I do..." and all that.


And you know what? That's the part that I take for granted. Or rather, I assume that it's a part of their appeal. :) Of course they are devoted to the cause and I love 'em for it. Otherwise I'd be reading/writing about two bankers or something. :)

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

That's very interesting. We problematize different issues and then get enthused about what's problematic.

I suppose that makes sense because we are locating potential complexity and conflict in different places.

(And BTW, I think you're in the majority here, certainly among slash writers but perhaps among gen writers too)

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Well, there's a great deal of slash that, to me, could be any two guys, bankers or trash collectors, rather than spies. I like the spy stuff (on a pretty juvenile level, I admit -- shoot 'em up, gadgets, world travel). I like that they care about a noble goal, enough to risk or give their lives to it. That's part of most any good story, slash or gen (although I can certainly enjoy a more domestic fic from time to time).
Mind you, any fandom, I think, has a percentage of slash fic that I would consider any-two-guys. Just smut using the characters' names.

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

So let me ask you a question though:

Based on your comments above, do you see the guys with a different sexual orientation based on whether you're writing gen or slash? Is it hard to switch from one to the other? Are they basically the same in your head or different?

I ask because even tho I can accept that the guys might be straight, bi or gay, I only see them one way when I write.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Based on your comments above, do you see the guys with a different sexual orientation based on whether you're writing gen or slash?

Of course. In gen, they're straight. In slash, they're (usually) bi or (sometimes) gay. How could it be otherwise? (I know, I'm opening myself up for wank, but it really is how I see it, and what the hell, it's my LJ *g*).

Seriously. I started writing gen. Then I considered flipping that one switch, sexual orientation, and seeing where the chips fell. Naturally, that one switch affects other aspects of a person's life (hence the story), but for me, the difference is that one switch being flipped. Otherwise, basically, they're the same guys.

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

How could it be otherwise?

Well, again, I tend to agree. One of the reasons I don't write slash is I believe they would have to be gay or bi and I don't really see them that way when I'm writing. I can certainly read them otherwise and accept that they certainly could be, but when I'm walking around inside their heads, they don't feel gay or bi to me.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

One of the reasons I don't write slash is I believe they would have to be gay or bi

The weird thing is, this is actually debated. Personally, I don't find it debatable, because if they're going to have sex with someone of the same gender willingly ... er, definition of gay/bi, anyone? And yet there's the whole "they're straight but they sleep together" contingent (I've seen the idea in other fandoms) ... makes no sense to me, but there you go. I'm no gender/sexuality expert, but I sort of figured straight/gay/bi was kind of about who you found sexually attractive, not irrelevant to it. :)

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, this is a much debated point which usually leads to the variability of sexuality and whether sexuality is a dichotomy or a sliding scale (How does one define 'straight'? What constitutes straight and/or gay.)

But once again, were in intimacy territory and the fantasy of romantic love that transcends all possible barriers.

I'm afraid I'm not much of a romantic when it comes to relationships between people, which may be why the love of cause and/or calling interests me more.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

But once again, were in intimacy territory and the fantasy of romantic love that transcends all possible barriers.

Well, it's true that there's an element of fantasy here, but I don't know that I can surrender the definitions of words and say anything goes because of it (not that you're implying that's OK). :) Without some precision of language (and meaning), a basis in reality (plotwise and characterization wise), the story's of no interest to me. But again, that's more about my general pedantry than about gender debate(which I'll leave to those who feel a need to argue about them -- I'm comfy with my simple definitions *g*).

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's a different creature, often, in slash -- I'm sort of generalizing on the fly, here, but in slash it's but one of many scenarios in which the characters might have sex (I agree with the silliness of stories where the hurt partner is all but dead until the "healing sex" begins), but in gen, specifically, it's as if it's as close as the story can come to ... not to slash, because I do not think of gen as a sort of substitute for/pale imitation of slash, but to physical intimacy, to that visceral expression of affection that is so satisfying. (I hope I'm not too incoherent; I've had my scotch and it's bed time, really).

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

Unless someone is really fascinated by torture side, I do believe that the point of h/c is about emotional intimacy and has a kind of eroticism (visceral physicality?) to it and have said so in the past in terms of women looking for feelings of nurturance/being nurtured to within fiction. (I'd have to go rummage through my lj to find it).

Like you, I don't believe most gen writers are writing it because they're afraid or uncomfortable with writing sex between the partners. Some folks are nervous about writing sex ---period --- even when they're writing slash so that's not where the correlation lies. (Hard to believe for slash writers, I know, but the possibility of sex between partners may not even *occur* to a gen writer)

However, I do think a lot of fan writing has a strong emphasis (and one might argue *over* emphasis) on the emotional side of a story. As slash writers have argued to me, it's not the sex but the intimacy that's important. H/c is steeped in intimacy so there's definitely a relation.

Personally, I'd rather read a decent slash story than one that is specifically written as h/c. In RL, when I'm hurt, I would rather withdraw than seek so-called comfort in whatever form.

To me, even fictionally, h/c works like this: "Hurt... and leave me the hell alone." :)

[leethet.livejournal.com]

The funny thing is, I'm the same way. When I'm not well I'd want to kill anyone who fussed over me (except that I'm not well enough to do it). I suppose because I grew up without fussing. I know it's meant well, but it's an irritant at the time. However, I'd call one guy dragging his injured partner out of the line of fire and holding a hand to a bleeding wound until help arrives H/C. Emergency H/C, and grudging H/C. That's what I like. :) The tucking in of covers, etc., is OK if not overdone. If it goes a little too mommy-ish, I admit I don't care for it.

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

one guy dragging his injured partner out of the line of fire and holding a hand to a bleeding wound until help arrives H/C.

See, I wouldn't call this H/C. I'd call it necessary. :)

If it goes a little too mommy-ish, I admit I don't care for it.

Yeah, that's pretty much where I am. And I really can't abide one of the guys 'tucking in' the other.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

one guy dragging his injured partner out of the line of fire and holding a hand to a bleeding wound until help arrives H/C.

See, I wouldn't call this H/C. I'd call it necessary. :)

I guess it's just my version of H/C. :)

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

Let me add that in addition to nurturing/being nurtured, I think the other issue is vulnerability. for wahtever reason, a lot of female fan writers (and maybe women in general?) really get off on the vulnerability aspect.

Here's one entry I found in which I discussed it:
http://st-crispins.livejournal.com/85649.html

Compare this to guy writers (fan and otherwise) who get off on the fact that the hero is *invulnerable* or seemingly so. It's the power and the *lack* of weak moments that they treasure.

Which says to me that men and women interpret power in different ways.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I'll try to avoid a gender discussion here (not that I don't enjoy them -- so much so I feel compelled to say that perhaps women wouldn't treasure those moments of male vulnerability so much if men didn't treasure pretending to be emotionless macho machines so much *g*) and say I would in general agree. Not that women like weak men (unless they're, you know, that kind of woman) in general, but they do like to know that their man isn't a bulletproof creature of iron and gears. Also -- an aspect that I think is important -- everyone, male or female, likes to feel needed by those they care about. That is empowering whether you're a man or a woman.

I was thinking whether I put myself in the nurturer or nurturee POV as a writer and reader, and it's usually the former, which I guess makes sense.

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

Not that women like weak men

No, they don't. But what is weak to one person is lovely and warm to another.

I don't know if the gender discussion can be avoided because I do believe, for whatever reason, often women find pleasure in things that men do not and vice versa.

And yes, that's an overgeneralization coming from a woman who likes the 'man's gotta do what he's gotta do' type situations and blowing things up good.

But mostly, I think, again for whatever reason, women find great pleasure in intimacy with other people no matter what the age, gender, etc. of that person and that's what I think many readers are looking for.

I recently posted two little drabbles about Solo's thoughts on the utility of vulerability and intimacy here:

http://st-crispins.livejournal.com/181746.html

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

There's a K/S story that dealt with that issue (This Deadly Innocence, or The End of the H/C Syndrome, 1979.) In the story, McCoy is pretty much of the mind that Kirk and Spock continually put themselves in danger so they'll have an excuse to touch each other. In that fandom, anyway, it seems to have been the road that led to slash.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Very interesting. I knew I couldn't possibly be the first person to observe this (more likely the last, the way I am), but it was a bit of a minor epiphany for me, so I wanted to mention it. :)