Rules of Engagement - a poll for readers and writers

[leethet]

I've been reading, and trying to write, in a new-to-me fandom. This, and my archiving of my MFU stuff on AO3, has made me think about something.

One of the things I like about LJ is that it makes actual comments about as easy as it's possible to make them barring being face to face with an author after you've finished a story (well, easier than that - what if you hated it?). One of the things I've observed in my own reading behavior in this "new" fandom is my own commenting. Now, I don't finish about 90 percent of the stories I start to read (this is true of any fandom). Of the ones I finish, I find most to be just OK (keep in mind this includes my own [see earlier poll] so I hope I don't sound too awful). Because of this, that "kudos" button is the easiest thing in the world. It sends an accurately mild (in terms of my time investment) "this was OK" message to the author.

I like it and I don't like it.

I like it because it's the exact right level of involvement for a story I only sorta liked. If I really like something I leave a comment, because if I really like something, there's always something I have to say about it.

It echoes the "like" button on FB. This is why I don't like it (yes, I'm a hypocrite. Or just human). One of the things I don't like about FB is the pretense it allows of intimacy. Of engagement. It's an extension of those Christmas form letters - "Dear INSERT NAME HERE" followed by some boasting. It (FB) allows people to pretend to maintain relationships without any of the actual (to my old-fashioned mind) maintenance of those relationships.

In this way the "kudos" button is the same; it permits readers to feel like they've "done their part" (I don't, for the record, think readers are required to do squat for writers - just so that's clear) without having actually troubled to give real feedback. Then again, do people use it because they can't think of what to say, because they're lazy, because they're busy, because they're intimidated - or because, like me, they don't really like most stories enough to feel they merit more than a lazy, in-passing thumbs up (again, I'm not finding fault with any of these approaches, just wondering)?

So, a poll. And, as always, please elaborate in comments. The way writers and readers think about stories is endlessly fascinating to me.
[Poll #1974799]

Comments

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

The last choice in this poll is akin to kudos don't you think. And therein lies the dilemma.
I think kudos is the least that one can do to acknowledge having read a story, but I do believe with most readers it is intended as a compliment. A comment requires having some feeling about a story, unless the reader just feels obligated to say something, sort of like looking at an ugly baby and exclaiming, "Well, that's a baby!". Not really what we're after.
I like comments like all writers, and the analogy I've used many times over is that, as a performer, I expect some response from the audience in order to be truly fulfilled in that role. Yes, please applaud and let me know you didn't nod off while I played my heart out for you.
Same with a story. I put something into it and want to hear back that it had an impact of some sort. Enjoyment, conflict, euphoria (well, best case scenario there). Admittedly when a writer tells the world that she/he only comments on what they consider worthy, it does ring of a certain smugness, as though that person's taste level is so much higher than what is normally presented. Perhaps it is, although from my own perspective, it actually does sadden me just a bit to know that the people who have made that statement have never commented on one of my stories unless in a format such as Down the Chimney or some other large scale challenge.
Is this too much? I think I speak for a lot of newer writers who have come along at a time when some of you who have lived in this fandom world for much longer, have tired of the requirements to fawn over stories and shore up egos.
So I choose to not take it personally. I can play piano for myself and have the pleasure of it be immensely satisfying, but I still want some acknowledgement from the audience if they show up for the entertainment.
Having said all of that... (would you give me a kudos or simply hit the return button?), I don't always comment either. Sometimes I don't know what to say or how to phrase something that should sound complimentary but somehow can't. I think real criticism belongs in a private message with at least some form of a solution to whatever problem has been identified; at least this is true unless on a forum that invites critical analysis.
I'm sure additional conversation on this topic will unveil even more opinions, attitudes and revelations. I think it definitely adds to our experience here.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Your comment gives me much food for thought.

A comment requires having some feeling about a story, unless the reader just feels obligated to say something, sort of like looking at an ugly baby and exclaiming, "Well, that's a baby!". Not really what we're after.

That's true too - the sort of knee-jerk click. Yeah, I can see that. People feel obligated.

I understand that some people will feel I'm being a snob when I say not much that I read moves me. It's the truth. I don't go into a story with an attitude of "I'm going to be above this if it kills me." I love to get absorbed in a story and to wallow in it emotionally and intellectually and feel disappointed when it ends. I love to love what I read. But I'm old and I've read a lot and I know a lot, and it takes quite a bit to impress me. That wasn't something I did deliberately in order to lord it over people; it just happened.

As I said, my own work hardly makes me go "Wow!" I recognize that I'm, as I've said before, a workmanlike writer at best, and that's OK - I still enjoy writing and get joy from it, though I'm aware my stuff's not that good. But it takes more than workmanlike writing to get me excited as a reader. I have no intentions behind that fact, and I'm also a pretty poor liar in such circumstances, so silence is my best approach.

tired of the requirements to fawn over stories and shore up egos.

I don't agree that anyone is required to fawn over anything or shore up anyone's ego, but that, too, is my own personal approach to life. Other approaches work for other people. I have no truck with false praise, or people who insist that others stroke them for engaging in their hobbies (fandom has a few of those). None of us, I think, are on this earth in order to bolster someone else's ego. I think if a writer puts a story out there, readers' honest reaction is what it is, and readers shouldn't pretend it's something else - and writers should accept that and get on with their lives.

On that note, not taking it personally is, I think, a prerogative of age (I don't know how old you are - I suppose I'm speaking of myself). I've always had a strong ego and never needed the praise of strangers (or, really, of anyone else) to value the things I do. So I don't know if I could ever defend or really understand the idea that people need praise or are owed praise, especially for doing something they elected to do and that, as a rule, no one else asked for. It's nice when it comes, sure - I actually am human :-) - but in no way necessary for me. If it is necessary, or very important, to some folks, bless 'em and good luck. I won't start lying to them because they need to hear something I don't feel.

This is beside the point of the poll, of course, and nothing I haven't said before, but there you go. I do appreciate your comments - the other aspect of not taking things personally is I welcome all kinds of opinions here, even - gasp - those that differ from my own. I do find, though, that I'm misunderstood a lot (at least, by my own view!) when I say the things I say regarding writing and ego (I'm not saying you've done so - this is a general observation), so if I overexplain here, I apologize. :-)

Sometimes I don't know what to say or how to phrase something that should sound complimentary but somehow can't.

I think this is very common, and understandable.

And I don't think (again, this is me) you should be saddened when people don't comment on your stuff. I've been in the same boat of not getting comments from people whose work I really admire in fandom (not so much this one). My assumption, since they're generally pretty nice people (insofar as one can judge online!) is that my stuff isn't good enough to interest them, and you know, I'm OK with that. I guess if I thought I was a really good writer I'd resent their silence, but I figure people that good must have very refined tastes and I'm not surprised I don't measure up. :-) (I guess I'm saying it's OK to not be a genius. :-))

Reply deux

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I think real criticism belongs in a private message with at least some form of a solution to whatever problem has been identified; at least this is true unless on a forum that invites critical analysis.

That seems to be the consensus in any fandom I've been in. Because editing is what I do and such a large part of my life, I have never wanted it to be done behind closed doors - the nuts and bolts of writing, as I've blathered on about before, are fascinating to me. Because of that and because I'm comfortable publicly acknowledging my works' flaws, I'm good with the criticism coming publicly. But I know many people are not comfortable with that. I think what I think about that, but that too is each writer's prerogative, just as having an opinion of a story is each reader's prerogative, and they should be free to speak it or stay silent as they choose. The one thing I'd like to see in fandom is if a person wants only praise publicly and any criticism privately or not at all, that they say so up front. "Please comment" is not sufficiently explicit. :-) I won't hold my breath. That, too, is part of why I stay silent - I get that the overall philosophy is "If you can't say anything nice ..."

Re: Reply deux

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

See, I can agree with everything you've said and still hold on to some of my sentimentality regarding the bolstering of egos.
I'm caught somewhere between a nurturing heart that wants to help people along and a very short lived career teaching piano (one time, as I recall) because I thought the student ought to know more. Illogical no matter what way you look at it.
The only time I was ever sent out into the hall (a very bad thing back in the day), was due to my enthusiastic offer to help a frog voiced boy practice the song for our Spring Fling. Instead of seeing through the obvious social awkwardness of that suggestion to the altruistic gesture that it was, it was viewed as being not very nice to said froggy voiced boy.
So you see, criticism comes with a price, and I've chosen to not encounter it any more often than is absolutely necessary.
I don't mind criticism if it's helpful. I don't take ranting very well, especially when it overlooks any positive aspects of the target.
I do like discussing things like this though, so ... don't shoot me... kudos to you ;)

Re: Reply deux

[(Anonymous)]

See, I can agree with everything you've said and still hold on to some of my sentimentality regarding the bolstering of egos.

And I don't think it's illogical at all to hold those apparently conflicting views - I feel the same way. I don't like seeing people hurt and I do like seeing people happy. That's normal for most of us. By the same token there's an element of recognition that skill is valuable - it produces good houses, good chairs, good music, etc. - and that it's earned, and deserves recognition - that praise just for showing up is somehow false, because it implies that skill and accomplishment are unnecessary or unvalued, or that showing up is as valuable as doing something well. I believe in merit. And (on the third hand) you certainly want to encourage learners in any art or craft, so to demand something of them they're not yet capable of, or in some way blame them for being beginners, is blatantly unfair. But I still won't lie and say I think a story's good if it isn't (and frankly, who cares about my opinion anyway?). I owe it to a beginner to not be unkind, but I'll still be honest. Usually that means silence. :-)

So, yeah ... there's more to it than any simple statement can convey, and I think on any given day a person can lean more in one direction or another.

Re: Reply deux

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Sorry - those anons are obviously me. Senility iss a ugly thing (to paraphrase from Young Frankenstein)

Re: Reply deux

[leethet.livejournal.com]

criticism comes with a price

It's what I do for a living, and boy, does it. I mean, it pays the bills, sure, but you learn fairly quickly that most people cannot see their darlings, and when you start suggesting they kill them (or even just shoot to disable), they react entirely on emotion and bruised ego. The people who are going to improve as writers are the people who don't stop there. I've been fortunate enough to have worked with quite a few of those.

Re: Reply deux

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

And... you know what? I do like your stories.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you. I do appreciate that (though you might well imagine I don't, given my comments here, but I really do. One can not need something and still enjoy it and acknowledge that it's good).

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

Coming to that, you are probably the only author of which I've read almost all published stories, in two fandoms. But at the time, I didn't feel "proper" to comment the work of well-known authors. It sounded a little presumptuous to me. In the same way, when I recced stories in crack_van, I preferentially chose those which I thought could have escaped the attention of many readers. I'm afraid my comments on line were quite rare though I entertained some private conversations by mail when I had specific questions to ask. And when I started reading with a Kindle, I tended to quickly lose tracks of the sources.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

But at the time, I didn't feel "proper" to comment the work of well-known authors.

I felt the same way when I started in online fandom. You feel as if you're introducing yourself and in a strange way intruding on people you don't know. It's funny because the reality is that online authors are generally delighted to hear someone liked their stuff, but online readers (many, perhaps most of us) go through that "Who am I to bother this person, even to say something nice?" phase. It was knowing that I wanted to pay a compliment that got me through the first comment, but I was uneasy, and quite relieved when I heard back from that person with "Thank you!"

Re: Reply deux

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

For someone who tries to write in a foreign language, as I do, criticism is useful, and the more public the better because it calls for other advices from different sources. So you know how your text is perceived by the average reader, not just by a single individual (pleonasm!) whose tastes and competences may be too personal to be very informative.

In my own language, on the contrary, I don't need external criticism; I know rather well to assess my achievements: if I am satisfied that means it must be good for I am the most ferocious censor I could be confronted to.

Re: Reply deux

[leethet.livejournal.com]

Which I think is another way of saying simply you are the only critic whose voice you're interested in hearing. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not quite a good enough writer to feel like I can disregard criticism from a good source, but there aren't too many people I listen to. :-)

I entirely agree that more voices can be better than just one (although one qualified voice is worth a thousand unqualified voices) - one writing coach long ago said "If one person tells you to change it, don't worry. If a lot of people tell you to change it, change it." That's solid advice for someone whose aim is to communicate. It doesn't matter if you feel you have - if a lot of readers are telling you you haven't, you haven't.

Re: Reply deux

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

I value others' advices while writing in French but I don't trust them; it's totally different in English.

By the way I don't want to give the impression I am a real writer, either in French or in English. In French, outside my work, I have merely written a few poems, and in English, only two long stories, one in Man from UNCLE and the other in "The Professionals" fandom (this one, very long, is almost complete but it took me ten years!).

Re: Reply deux

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I value others' advices while writing in French but I don't trust them

Can you parse this for me? I'm not seeing the distinction between the two when it comes to writing advice.

Re: Reply deux

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

I mean I give them some consideration, especially if I like the adviser's person or his work, but I remain the sole arbiter "in fine".

Re: Reply deux

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I see - and that's absolutely as it should be. After all, your name goes on the work.

Re: Reply deux

[elmey.livejournal.com]

I think writing in a foreign language is one of the hardest things imaginable (for a writer). You need an editor (or beta) that has a sense of the nuance you want to convey, not just the superficial fact. It's hard work on both sides. But I'm fascinated by the way someone can use language in a slightly foreign way and sometimes get an effect that's just lovely.

Re: Reply deux

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

Well, my beta deliberately, limits her corrections to my remaining grammatical or lexical mistakes, not wanting to touch the style in any way (but after about two years of very competent teaching in that area); that's why I am so desirous to know how my text is "heard" by my English-speaking readers: I certainly intend to produce such or such effects, but how are they felt? I can't tell. It's completely different in French: I have acquired a kind of "musical ear" attuned to the French "melody", the more so since I started with poetry; sometimes I think I'm beginning to get it in English too but I can't be sure of it. I never have doubts in French: the sentence sounds right or not, is what I wanted to do or not, and it the answer is "not", I erase it and start over, again and again, till I achieve exactly what I wanted;

Re: Reply deux

[elmey.livejournal.com]

That's interesting. I use an "inner ear" when I'm writing (and reading) also. The rhythm of a sentence can convey information or emotion as much as the words do. It's hard. I have a tendency to misuse punctuation trying to guide the reader into my rhythm :)

And, WAY too late to make a long story short ...

[leethet.livejournal.com]

The actual key thing: I think kudos is the least that one can do to acknowledge having read a story

Well, nothing is the least one can do, but to accept your premise, I guess I say "Yeah, it is - and is that really OK? You know? If you'd like readers to in some way acknowledge the work you've done, is it helpful to make it easier for them not to?"

Then again, the alternative probably is not a full on comment - it's probably silence. The "kudos" button is an acknowledgement of a fandom reality - people won't bother.